K_Hungus
1 post
Jul 05, 2011
12:26 PM
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Hi everybody I've this question
I mainly own 1896 Marine Band’s, the adjustments I make are just gapping and occasional re-tuning (and opening the covers). I can play overblows with pretty acceptable speed and effort, but on SP20s it all goes a little easier. Recently I really got into tongue blocking. And I notice difference in leakage between MBs and SP20’s as well.
Will leakage drop noticeable by replacing the nails with screws (like I heard somebody say on YT? Or is is it more the plastic and the construction of the Sp that makes it more tight?
Please let me know if you have any thoughts
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arzajac
556 posts
Jul 05, 2011
2:30 PM
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A Marine band will not become airtight by replacing the nails with screws. In fact, unless you are good at it, you will make it worse.
What will make a MB very airtight is sanding down the comb. Some MB combs swell and therefore benefit from being waterproofed (sealed) but if you can leave it unsealed, you will have a very good result. Sealing will make your comb slightly less flat and therefore leak more. While you are at it, you can (I want to say "should") sand the draw reed plate - the surface that comes into contact with the comb.
You will know when you have done a good job at it when you reassemble the harp and play it. The tone is much different that a SP20 - much better I would say. Some say that no harp compares to a properly sanded, airtight MB.
Replacing the nails with screws makes disassembling and reassembling the harp easy. Reassembling the harp with nails is no easy task. So it's very common to disassemble the harp, replace the nails with screws, sand down the comb and draw reedplate and then reassemble.
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K_Hungus
2 posts
Jul 05, 2011
4:20 PM
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Thanks a lot arzajec for your comment,
Actually I quite like the nails. I’m not to much of a tool guy so it’s always an extended search for a proper screwdriver. A thin blade is easier to find, and I don’t need to open my MBs that often since I do minimal adjustments.
You’ve raised very interesting points, it leaves me with these two questions:
- What type of sanding paper should I use for the plate and/or the comb?
- If I do put in screws for (possible) more advanced re-adjustments in the future, do you have or know any info I should see on this? I mean just to mount the screws as you said it could make leakage worse
The swelling is nothing I worry about. Some swell extensive after a while (I only have Mbs since 2008) but I tap them and grab another harp, if the deformation stays I do a little filing. I love the marine bands sounds over the SP or any other harmonica I’ve come a cross so far. It has this jingle, it maybe in the head, I don’t know and don’t care.
Anyway I'm really curious to the effect of sanding the comb and draw plate, thanks
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2011 4:23 PM
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Baker
135 posts
Jul 06, 2011
9:54 AM
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There is a good series of videos on replacing the nails with screws on Your Tube. The first one is here: http://www.youtube.com/user/proveit#p/u/12/h_9mMUAt3yY
One small thing to add to this is that if your using a hand drill like he does in the video, be careful to make sure you are drilling a straight down, and not at a slight angle.
I use 1000 grit sand paper to do the comb and the bottom reed plate.
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Tommy the Hat
81 posts
Jul 06, 2011
10:15 AM
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So, how much sanding are we talking about here and what is being sanded down/off? What result should one be looking for?
Thanks...sorry to butt in on the thread
Tommy
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Bronx Mojo
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arzajac
557 posts
Jul 06, 2011
12:36 PM
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"- What type of sanding paper should I use for the plate and/or the comb?"
I use at least 400 grit. I have slightly better results with 600 grit. I can't tell the difference after that. Anyway, it's too much work to use anything higher - the paper takes so little off when you use greater than 600 grit. So I usually start with 400 grit to get most of the job done and finish the last few strokes with 600.
"- If I do put in screws for (possible) more advanced re-adjustments in the future, do you have or know any info I should see on this? I mean just to mount the screws as you said it could make leakage worse"
Use a drill press.
I like 10mm M2 screws. I find they are the perfect length for both the reedplates and the coverplates - I hate a protruding bolt on the coverplate! Three screws for the reedplates and two screws for the coverplate. I just drill where the nail holes were for the two front nails and leave the back free (I'm talking about coverplates). It works fine and actually, I think putting a screw in the back puts leverage and opens up the front.
"So, how much sanding are we talking about here and what is being sanded down/off? What result should one be looking for?"
I draw pencil lines across the tines and sand until they are all gone. I use a board with four bolts sticking out like feet. The bolts are exactly the correct length to that the board is level at all times. I stick the comb onto the underside of the board with thin double-stick tape. I wet or otherwise dirty the tape so that it doesn't stick too much - I've broken combs trying to unstick them...
Also, the worst thing you can do is sand crookedly. It needs to be perfectly flat.
I have posted about this before, I will try to look those posts up. I had a photo or two...
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Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2011 12:37 PM
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arzajac
558 posts
Jul 06, 2011
1:40 PM
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This is the comb which I haven't touched. The saw-mill marks and the crud on the tips of the tines make it unusable as-is.
This is another comb that I worked on today. It is sanded smooth/flat and has two coats of gloss finish on it.
This is the sanding block I use. I put screws on four corners to prevent me from tipping the block and making an uneven surface.
From here:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/729557.htm
I don't usually criss-cross the sanding tracks, but I tried vacuuming the sheet after the first use and it seemed to work.
This is a draw reed plate that I sanded smooth. The blow plate is the one on on the top.
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arzajac
559 posts
Jul 06, 2011
1:44 PM
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Also see this:
The Comb Over, Part 4
Monster Harmonica Workbench
by Kinya Pollard
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K_Hungus
3 posts
Jul 07, 2011
6:06 AM
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I'm going to try it all this weekend, thanks so much!
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logansays
33 posts
Jul 07, 2011
6:48 AM
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@arzajac by leaving the comb unfinished, will they be likely to swell ( if only sealing the teeth and in between the tines?)
or if a thick lacquer is applied on the surface and then flat sanded, but taking care not to expose the wood, will that be of any help?
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sustaireblues
8 posts
Jul 07, 2011
7:08 AM
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Where do you get the screws?
Joe
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arzajac
560 posts
Jul 07, 2011
9:01 AM
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"by leaving the comb unfinished, will they be likely to swell ( if only sealing the teeth and in between the tines?)"
If the comb never had problems with swelling, sanding it down won't make it start to swell. If it does have a swelling problem, sealing the insides of the tines will be very effective in preventing that. Sealing the other surfaces of the comb will help additionally.
I buy vintage harps on ebay, so I seal the whole surface to avoid catching tetanus, polio or Syphilis.
I sand, then apply a small amount of water-based varnish. I use vinyl golves and dip one finger into the finish. I massage it into the wood with my finger and then polish it right away with a "microfiber" cloth. I do this a few times in a row (three times?) and then let it sit for a few hours. I repeat the process again, and maybe another time.
"or if a thick lacquer is applied on the surface and then flat sanded, but taking care not to expose the wood, will that be of any help?"
I think less is more. I have found success in apply minute amounts a little at a time and then polishing it into the wood. That really is the only practical way I can get a flat, smooth surface. But that's just me. There are many ways to skin a cat.
I tried salad bowl finish, but after two harps, the stuff just dried up - so that was a waste of money.
"Where do you get the screws?"
I get them online:
Microfasteners.com
You will need screws and nuts. Nuts are expensive and tedious to use on the reedplates, so I tap the reedplates (create a thread). I only use nuts for the coverpates.
I bought an M2 tap from them. You don't need a tap handle, although I tried it - I can never get it to be straight. I just grab the tap in vise grips (tap held parallel, not perpendicular). I hold the reedplate up, parallel to the ceiling and tap upwards (like screwing in a screw in the ceiling); If I hold the reedplate parallel with the ceiling, gravity will tend to dangle the tap straight.
I don't use the perfect sized drill bits. They are expensive and not easy to find. I just use regular bits from a standard drill bit set.
I use the 1/16th bit to drill holes in everything. Those are just a hair smaller than the #52 bit you need to tap with an M2 tap. I have no problem tapping brass that way. It's a little snug, but I think it helps me make a straighter path.
For the holes in the comb and opposite reedplate, I use either the 5/64 or 3/32 bit to make the existing 1/16th hole bigger. So long as the screw's head will cover the hole, the size doesn't matter. Start small and go up if you misaligned something and need a bigger clearance hole to correct.
I disassemble, drill (both plates and the comb), tap the holes that need tapping (only one side - the other side is a clearance hole), sand (draw reedplate and comb)and finish (comb) in that order. Then adjust reeds, tune and gap.
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Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 9:08 AM
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sustaireblues
9 posts
Jul 09, 2011
5:18 AM
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All right, thanks for the detailed info on the screws and tapping! Basic stuff, but I hadn't found any sourcing or how to advice. Just getting started trying to get a handle on basic gapping and stopping all the air leaks. So this is some great info!
Joe
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chromaticblues
918 posts
Jul 09, 2011
5:41 AM
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@arzajac You can finnish it before you sand it. There are two reasons I did that when I was going thru all that. First MB combs are thin so everyong should tread lghtly hear. Don't go sand paper crazy! If you seal it first you will be sealing up some of the low points and the inside of the tines will be sealed and not effected by the sand ing afterwards. I purposly sand all or most of the finnish off the top and bottom, but by sealing it first the sealant will fill in those saw marks and those no longer are as important to completely remove. So for that reason seal it pretty good on top and bottom first and just sand untill its flat
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arzajac
564 posts
Jul 09, 2011
7:17 AM
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Chromaticblues: I agree with you. I learned the hard way about oversanding.
Do you seal again after sanding?
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