kudzurunner
2826 posts
Nov 20, 2011
10:21 AM
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I'm updating my "amps for sale" page on this website, and it's become apparent to me that it would be good if I were able to recommend a stock, easily available amp that represents the next power level above the HG2.
So what I'm looking at is amps in the 10-25 watt range. I would strongly prefer that it NOT be a custom amp, but instead a major-manufacturer amp. Ideally, from my perspective, it would be available from Musician's Friend:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/
Aficionados, this is your chance to weigh in on MOR (middle-of-the-road) options for harp amping. To make this easy for me, please restrict yourself to a FIRST and SECOND recommendation, not a long list of amps. Please do NOT recommend an amp unless you have actually played through it.
Thanks in advance.
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Joe_L
1630 posts
Nov 20, 2011
10:39 AM
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Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue. This is a very nice amp.
Fender Custom Vibrolux Reverb. Not a popular amp, but if you've got tone, this is a good choice.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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bharper
103 posts
Nov 20, 2011
11:03 AM
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I agree with Joe-L about the Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue. It is indeed a very nice harp amp for $899 from Musicians Friend.
It would, however, be my second choice. The Fender Pro Jr is less than half the cost ($399) and sounds nearly as good. I've owned and played these amps, and can recommend them.
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2011 11:07 AM
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Kingley
1711 posts
Nov 20, 2011
11:25 AM
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I agree that the Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue and the Fender Pro Jr are great choices for harp.
I've owned both and the Princeton Reverb Reissue is far, far superior to the Pro Jr in tone. The Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue is tonally speaking the best sounding amp I have ever used for harmonica.
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Joe_L
1631 posts
Nov 20, 2011
11:58 AM
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Oh yeah, I forgot about the Pro Jr. I owned one of those. Best amp for about $200 used. I loved that thing, but stopped playing it when I got the Double Trouble. I should have kept it.
Good volume and good tone. If a person doesn't sound good through a Pro Jr, they've got work to do. I swapped an Electro Harmonix 12AY7 into V1 and was a happy guy for a year.
I wouldn't recommend buying any of these things new. Buy used and save some dough.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2011 12:02 PM
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JBharmonica
72 posts
Nov 20, 2011
12:36 PM
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I recently tried a Fender Mustang series amp....Not a tube amp, but for the price and the Amp Modeling technology, I think it's a steal!!!! I demoed the Series II which is a 40w 1x12...The Series I is a 20w 1x8.
It also has a Line out.
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JB
http://www.facebook.com/jbharmonica
jbustillos@gmail.com
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Fingers
120 posts
Nov 20, 2011
12:36 PM
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Fender Blues deville! 4x10 30 watts loud and reliable, i stopped gigging 4 years ago but just cant part with it.
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HawkeyeKane
438 posts
Nov 20, 2011
1:01 PM
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Gonna second or third the motion on the Princeton reissue. I don't own one, but I've blown through one on multiple occaisions. They're excellent.
Really the only other one I've played on that I could recommend in this category is the Peavey Delta Blues 115. It's slightly more powerful than what you're calling for, 30W, but it's a wonderful amp for harp. I've played both the 115 and the 210. They have a couple of control advantages over the Princeton as well, and they're about 25% less expensive.
EDIT: Just seeing Stevelegh's post here, I'll amend my recommendation. I thought Adam was only looking for tubers. But yes, modelling amps....
Peavey Vypyr 15. I do own this one and it's extremely versatile for a 15W, 8" solid state. One drawback is that there's no line-out, but it's easily mic'd. I still do recommend the Delta Blues, but keeping in Adam's output parameters, that's my #2 choice.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2011 1:30 PM
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Stevelegh
342 posts
Nov 20, 2011
1:19 PM
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Gotta go with JB. Modelling amps / pedals are the way to go. Yes, I know they don't quite nail it if you're a real 'tone hound' but they cover a huge variety of sounds and are cheap. The best thing is, you're not trying to fight tone and volume. Valves require volume to get cooking. You can dial in a sound on a modelling amp and get it no matter what size gig you're playing.
My wife gets really annoyed when I tell her that I need to play loud on a valve amp to get the right tone.
My choice: Line 6 Spider IV 75. I know it's not within the criteria of 10-25 watt, but it doesn't matter as you can turn it down.
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hvyj
1967 posts
Nov 20, 2011
1:37 PM
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Plus one on the Princeton Reverb Reissue.
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eharp
1564 posts
Nov 20, 2011
1:38 PM
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totally shocked to see amp modeling in this thread.
i recently sold some amps, including a hg2, and bought a used digitech rp355- $125, patches from richard hunter $35 and a used behringer pa speaker $175. put it all together and i can easily get some dirty chicago blues, to clean acoustic, to some funky jazz to things i dont even know where to play them except at practice all with pressing on a pedal!
when i first read about this rig on hunter's site, i was intrigued but thought it wasnt "pure". but with the use of customized and special tuning harps, specialized mics, boutique amps and harp specific pedals it doesnt seem as if "pure" matters to most. it's all about the finished product, right?
and i need any advantage i can get!
but i have a feeling that this rig aint gonna get any other mention in this thread.
ut remember- this site is MODERN Blues Harmonica.
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kudzurunner
2828 posts
Nov 20, 2011
5:46 PM
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I've never owned a modeling amp, but my hunch is that beginners and early intermediates, which is who I'd be recommending amps for, are better off with something simple to operate rather than something with a million different sweet spots that takes a while to figure out.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1606 posts
Nov 20, 2011
5:54 PM
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I was going to say I heard and was thinking about for my next Amp A Epiphone valve jr,But I just looked on muscians friend and cant find them,Have they quit making them?,I wish I had got one now
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Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2011 5:55 PM
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HawkeyeKane
442 posts
Nov 20, 2011
5:56 PM
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Normally, I'd agree with you Adam. But modellers usually do come with fairly easy-to-follow instruction manuals. My Vypyr was simple enough to figure out what basic setting to use right there in the store when I tested it out. Truthfully, they really are pretty simple to use once you have your presets assigned.
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Hawkeye Kane
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cdsprocket
32 posts
Nov 20, 2011
6:06 PM
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Is the Princeton Reverb a couple of you mention this one? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/fender-vintage-reissue-65-deluxe-reverb-guitar-combo-amp
If so, at a list price of $999 wouldn't it just be easier to purchase a custom harp amp? I'm not sure I would shell out that much $ on a guitar amp that was going to be used as a harp one -- can't say a beginner would either...(my opinion)
Adam: I've been extremely happy with my Epiphone valve. Randy @ Lone Wolf did a nice job with it - it screams. Even before the mod, it was a worthy contender. Unfortunately, it looks like their not on Musician's Friend website (I think they are discontinued?) Looks like you can still buy them at guitar center or sam ash...
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Joe_L
1634 posts
Nov 20, 2011
6:12 PM
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No. Its this one.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/fender-65-princeton-reverb-15w-1x10-tube-guitar-combo-amp
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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garry
147 posts
Nov 20, 2011
7:14 PM
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@kudzu: i think your concerns about modeling amps are misplaced. you don't have to figure out a million sweet spots. you pick an amp model and then it acts just like any other amp. volume/gain/master/tone/etc. if you want effects, you can add them, but that's certainly easier than adding them by using separate devices.
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garry
148 posts
Nov 20, 2011
7:18 PM
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as far as endorsements, i would add the vox vt-30 or fender mustang 2. i use the vox and it's a great amp. i've played at some length through the various fender mustangs. like the 2 a lot, but the 3 could be a poster child for your "too complicated" concerns. but i think it'd be good to have modeling amps represented as an option.
the current version of the vox is the vt-40+.
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easyreeder
31 posts
Nov 20, 2011
7:33 PM
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Adam, sounds like there's room for a recommendation on modelers as separate category. Folks who are mixing blues into an eclectic act would need the versatility and might not be able to afford a dedicated harp amp as well.
Just what you needed eh? More tasking.....
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5F6H
983 posts
Nov 21, 2011
1:46 AM
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I don't see why modelling amps (SS or tube powered) shouldn't get some recommendations, but from Adam's original request it seemed like he was asking about a one stop, self contained amp. This would exclude the Sansamp, Behringer V-amp, Pod, Digitech modellers as far as I can see. Modelling preamps can be used with any kind of power amp/combo (they, and "regular" amps are not mutually exclusive), so perhaps these should have their own thread?
Safe bet for the next stage up from a 5W practice amp - another vote for the Fender 65 Princeton RI.
Surely, given Adam's reference to the HG2 in the original post, the HG Double Trouble would also be a logical progression, despite neither amp being available from MF?
In the UK the Laney LC15 is an excellent, value for money, amp that works pretty well off the shelf (I have owned 2 of them). Tolerant to preamp tube subs too for very hot mics if required (essentially it's a mini, 1x10" tweed bassman, w/master volume). Can't see any US listings for it though?
There was a bit of buzz about the Princeton Recording amp when it came out, anyone got any useful experience/comparison with th 65 RI?
@Eharp - you are quite right, this is modern blues harp, we should be eschewing the old fashioned practices...I mean, I bet some of the troglodytes reading this still eat with knives & forks, or even chopsticks! :-O. Being thoroughly modern myself, I only ever cut my food with a laser scalpel and transport it to my mouth with an anti-gravity beam. ;-) In fact food, yeuch..., what an old fashioned idea, a billion year old concept, mashing up proteins & carbohydrates, stuffing it in your face...& man, what comes out the other end, well it's not worth thinking about...I look forward to soon evolving into a being of pure energy, I could download myself into the latest supercomputer & flit about, maybe to CERN...(where they are using the latest technology... to try and recreate particles not seen for 13.7billion years...hmmmm...on reflection seems like a lot of effort to find something so "old"?) Of course, I would have little time for the rather old fashioned concept of music, that stuff's thousands of years old! ;-)
The AK-47 was designed in 1947 (unsurprisingly) & is still pretty popular & effective. My point being, good designs endure, try getting parts/service for a digitech in 50yrs time? ;-)
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www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 3:04 AM
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harpdude61
1168 posts
Nov 21, 2011
3:48 AM
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10-25 watt range....hard to beat the 18 watt Double Trouble from Harpgear....
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HarpNinja
1918 posts
Nov 21, 2011
6:13 AM
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Amps matching Adam's criteria:
Fender Princeton Reverb RI (top pick)
Fender Pro Junior (needs tube/speaker swap)
Fender Super Champ XD (David Barrett likes it too)
Fender Mustang Series (I didn't care for them)
Vox VT30 (ok, haven't played it, but Brandon Bailey likes it)
Not only are these easily found on sites like MF, but even small music shops have them (well, they do here in Mankato) and can readily be found used.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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lor
34 posts
Nov 21, 2011
6:54 AM
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There were a lot of negative comments on the 'net about the amp I got used off eBay at $300, the Fender Blues Junior, all tube amp. But tricked out by mods from billmaudio.com genius Bill Machrone, this thing is awesome, totally undeserving of the negativity. Stock speaker puts out what sounds like 50 watts if you crank it up. My wife complained about the volume while she was out sunbathing in the yard, and all the doors were shut. Bill's mods totally improved the tone controls and added a 'presence' control which gives you control of the 'attack' of the notes, from creamy blooming build out to sharp cutting power. It has both pre-amp gain and master volume, so you can crank the pre-amp into serious distortion, yet keep the master volume low enough to keep the cats in the same room. It took me less than ten minutes to find the settings which pretty much duplicate the sounds Adam praises in his amp demo sessions. This thing has more range, more potential than all of the modeling amps I tried. Those let you pick different specific voicings, but this modded BJ puts the entire multi-dimensional continuuum at your bidding. Mr. Machrone will do the mods for you, or you can buy them in little kits to do yourself. The BJ I bought had some of them already done, but I did the rest of them myself. If you DIY you need to be comfortable handling PC boards and wiring and soldering etc., which I am. The cost of the kits (you can do them one at a time) will run about $200 for all the best ones, or another $100 for one's you can do without (changing output tubes, foot switches, etc.). Maybe you know a tech who can put them in for you. Check the billmaudio.com website. Even if you don't go that way, it will teach you a whole lot about how the electronics develop the sound, to help you pick a different amp
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 6:55 AM
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HarpNinja
1921 posts
Nov 21, 2011
7:48 AM
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@lor,
I think some of what makes that amp a turnoff is that it isn't easy to use vs the tone you get when not modded.
Then, you start factoring in the overall cost with mods...Your amp would about $600ish like you said, and for that you can start looking at used Bassman RI's which tend to sound better, even if stock. Heck for $700ish you can get a used DT.
I am not at all implying that your amp isn't good or that getting one and modding one is a waste of money. I am not discouraging people from trying it. I am saying, though, that for what Adam is asking, it isn't a top-tier choice.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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HawkeyeKane
448 posts
Nov 21, 2011
9:07 AM
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@5F6H
Laney is only sold by one distributor here in the states.
http://www.musicaldistributors.com/
And I've checked every instrument retail website I know. Bupkiss. So I'm guessing it's probably only available through a few select retailers throughout the US. That's a shame too. I know Laney's quality. Hell, it's the amplifier that Mark Knopfler used to get the guitar sound on Money for Nothing.
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Hawkeye Kane
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waltertore
1683 posts
Nov 21, 2011
9:21 AM
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I have a princeton reverb reissue. It is great on guitar and harp. It is plenty big for gigs as well. I have owned BF twins, BF Pro reverb, tweed bassman, BF deluxe, BF super reverb, and BF Vibroverb. These were all stock ones and not vintage at the time. The princeton RI sounds great to my ears, it has reverb and tremelo, and is easy on the back! Walter
I wish I still had those amps. I let them go for less than a song. They were still just gigging amps. I could be sitting a nice pile of cash with them today........
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,800+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 9:23 AM
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hvyj
1968 posts
Nov 21, 2011
11:11 AM
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A Princeton Reverb RI and a Blues Junior achieve equivilant volume (which means very loud for a small amp), but the PRRI will get louder before feedback than a BJ.
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almost_random
3 posts
Nov 21, 2011
11:39 AM
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How about blackheart ones (http://www.blackhearteng.com/)? Did anyone tried one of these? I know at least that creator of those is the same as an author of Epi Valve Jr, so i expect they could be decent.
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lor
35 posts
Nov 21, 2011
12:54 PM
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@kudzu I apologize because my post falls outside your initial request parameters. Maybe it will be useful for whomever might be reading the thread for general info.
@all I know my claims seem beyond belief for the BJ, but you gotta hear it to believe it.
@harpninja It's not hard to use, even modded. But I do admit it's a pale shadow of itself when not modded, capable of little more than 'fender clean' and a bit boxy of tone.
@all If you can read electronics schematics, you'll see that the concept of the circuitry lends itself to improvements through enhancement of components and some easy additions, without requiring restructure of the stages of amplification.
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MJ
321 posts
Nov 21, 2011
12:54 PM
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While reading through the recommendations, I noticed the Pro Jr. mentioned a few times. I recently bought one and sold it 3 days later. To me the feedback threshold is way too low and the tone not that great. If you need to swap speaker, tubes, and mod a bunch to get it right, then Its better to go with something else. I own a Silverface Princeton Reverb and love it for harp, so if the re-issue is anything like the original, it would be good. However the PR is only 12 watts. I have played through an Egnater Rebel 20 and thought it would make a good harp rig with the right speaker, possibly the Epiphone Valve Jr. extension cabinet.
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 12:55 PM
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eharp
1573 posts
Nov 21, 2011
3:09 PM
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5f- why would you think about eschewing anything? i'm just trying to point out that old doesnt mean better. nor does new. it's just a different way to get to the same spot.
if you want to use the ak-47 as some sort of an example that old is best, why dont you go all the way back to a club? i hear tell that that was the way to go way back when. things change. granted not always for the better, but for folks with an open mind an adventurous spirit, something modern may be something to look into.
and if you are worried about repairs, the cost of "modern" technology is always going down. a modeler pedal in 50 years may be the same as a good wha-wha is now. could be less than replacing tubes. and you sure aint gonna replace those tubes in 50 years with NOS!
i am just offering up a different, and affordable alternative.
enjoy you laser cut, protein.
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garry
149 posts
Nov 21, 2011
3:53 PM
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@5F6H: antigravity beams are so last year.
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kudzurunner
2830 posts
Nov 21, 2011
4:41 PM
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Thanks to all who have weighed in here. It's been a useful discussion. I didn't realize that Fender's current amps had a decent rep among serious harp players, and it hadn't occurred to me that modeling amps were a possible go-to choice for people who might, for example, buy an amp on a recommendation from a harmonica website. Thanks for educating me!
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 4:41 PM
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LSB
90 posts
Nov 21, 2011
5:47 PM
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Seems a shame to rule out the Harpgear Double Trouble in this wattage range just because it's a "Custom" amp, particularly considering the price of the PRRI. As HarpNinja mentioned, a used DT can be had for around $700., which is a couple of hundred less than the PRRI new.
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rbeetsme
469 posts
Nov 22, 2011
4:32 AM
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All of this discussion about the Princeton, I've heard good things from guitar players about the vintage ones. So I checked my local market and found a mid 50's Princeton, good restoration, gig ready. Great, now I'm mooning over another amp! Anyone want some breathed-on Kalamazoos? I'll need a down payment!
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hvyj
1969 posts
Nov 22, 2011
5:00 AM
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@rbeetsme: There's a big difference between a "Princeton" and a "Princeton Reverb," All the accolades in this thread are for the Princeton Reverb.
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bharper
105 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:02 AM
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hvyj- For me, the 60's vintage non-reverb Princeton is a much better harp amp. It lacks an extra gain stage that is included in the Princeton Reverb. Big Walter played a black-face non-reverb Princeton.
That said, according to Adam's parameters the reissue PR is an amp I would recommend.
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bharper
106 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:12 AM
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If I can move beyond Adam's limits for a moment... When harp players ask my advice about which amp to buy when stepping up from a 5-watt practice amp, I find they are usually interested in taking that next step toward jamming and performing. A 12-15 watt amp (no matter how sweet it's tone) will likely get sonically lost in situations where the other musicians are not sympathetic to what you are trying to do. You just won't be able to hear yourself.
I usually recommend they make an investment in a good mid-sizeed custom harp amp, such as the Harpgear 35 or Mission Chicago 32-20 or SJ Cruncher. If their aim is to join in at blues jams, they will be frustrated with anything less than two 6L6 power tubes in their amp. I've see it a hundred times...
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atty1chgo
162 posts
Nov 22, 2011
11:08 AM
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I've only played seriously for several years, and I have just started to go to blues jams around the Chicago area. Most of the time it involves hooking up one of my microphones (Electrovoice 635A and/or Electrovoice 638) to the P.A. system. But I happen to be (apparently) one of the few people who enjoy solid state amplification. My amp at home is an vintage circa 1981 Peavey Special (120 watts) with a 12" Scorpion speaker in outstanding condition. This amp wails, and it has enough features to fine tune the sound, including a very good reverb. With a low impedence mic like the 635A through a transformer, the sound is excellent.
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 11:11 AM
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Joe_L
1635 posts
Nov 22, 2011
7:44 PM
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I usually recommend they make an investment in a good mid-sizeed custom harp amp, such as the Harpgear 35 or Mission Chicago 32-20 or SJ Cruncher. If their aim is to join in at blues jams, they will be frustrated with anything less than two 6L6 power tubes in their amp. I've see it a hundred times...
As far as mid-sized harp specific amps, I would recommend the Harpgear Double Trouble. I have had that thing for five years. Used it weekly for four of those years. I've used it in several loud situations and it was only drown out one time. Worst case, it gets amplified through the PA. If the player needs a "big bottom end", then I recommend a Cruncher.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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kudzurunner
2833 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:26 PM
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The Double Trouble is a great amp. It uses a pair of 6V6, not 6L6.
My dream amp would be two or three HG2s in one cabinet, with 5-7 watts per speaker as in the original. The Double Trouble didn't sound as good with my mic as the HG2. At 18 watts, it had slightly too much power relative to the speakers. I need a double HG2.
The HG2 has 5-7 watts. So a double HG2 would have 10-14 watts and the same two speakers as the DT. That's what I need.
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 8:27 PM
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Buzadero
898 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:36 PM
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"If the player needs a "big bottom end", then I recommend a Cruncher."
Wow. That's too easy, Joe.
Like a low, hanging curveball just waiting out there....
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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Joe_L
1636 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:49 PM
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I've never felt like I was handicapped by 2x6V6's with the Double Trouble. I didn't feel like 6L6's were needed. In fact, when I tried the HG30, it wasn't as loud with the 6L6's.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Matzen
356 posts
Nov 23, 2011
2:32 AM
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Fender Princeton Reverb RI!
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LIP RIPPER
524 posts
Nov 23, 2011
3:38 AM
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Nice modeling amp cover;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Amp-Cover-Princeton-Champ-600-5C2-5F1-Vintage-Style-CANVAS-/250936534585?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6cfba639
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Udderkuz03
11 posts
Jul 18, 2013
11:45 AM
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Stevelegh, what microphone or other components do you use with the line 6 spider IV 75?
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LSC
471 posts
Jul 18, 2013
1:06 PM
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I'd put up for consideration tube PA heads from Bogen, Knight, Newcomb, Masco and others. Readily available on Ebay already modded with 1/4" inputs and speaker outs and usually freshly serviced as well. Add a cab with speaker of choice and you've got a pretty tidy rig, often for under $500 or less if you're patient.
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LSC
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6SN7
336 posts
Jul 19, 2013
6:46 AM
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@LSC re: PA heads.
I have owned them, they are fun, but they can be quite "unstable" at times.
They are prone to getting knocked over, always need to be miced up and buying one directly from eBay and expecting to play out of the box , well, I think that's a wonderful dream. All the great PA heads I have played thru were completely rebuilt from the ground up and cost more than 500$. But even the great ones I have played do not project well into the crowd. Great my the studio, iffy for playing in bars.
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Rick Davis
2131 posts
Jul 19, 2013
6:51 AM
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6SN7 is exactly right. Masco's are fun and sound great, but don't have enough kick for a typical bar gig.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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HawkeyeKane
1896 posts
Jul 19, 2013
7:00 AM
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Dave Wren over at harpmicshop.com usually has a decent selection of PA heads. He's very fond of the Bogen CHB10A's which are single ended 10-watters. But he also flips DuKanes, Stromberg-Carlsons, Mascos, and others for pretty reasonable prices. I've heard some sampling of the DuKanes he has right now, and they sound really nice. Pretty versatile too.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jul 19, 2013 7:06 AM
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