Nibiria
24 posts
Jul 10, 2014
11:09 AM
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So I've been listening to a lot of Blues Traveler again because I love how JP makes his harps sound -- they're very light and almost joyful sounding, and I needed a break from the sadder blues kind of stuff I've been practicing.
I've heard that a good way to learn how to play like that is to think of solos in patterns rather than in notes, making faster playing easier by going off what you know and stringing it together. So my question here is threefold: first, how would I develop my own patterns? Is this an accurate description? And how can I practice to the point that I can play quickly without flubbing the notes?
I really enjoy this sort of energetic style and want to explore it more, and you guys are my only resource (I don't personally know any other harp players). Thanks in advance!
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barbequebob
2643 posts
Jul 10, 2014
11:24 AM
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Regardless of what genres you prefer to listen to, the idea of patterns is something many players need to pay attention to because no matter how creative they are, there are always going to be phrasing patterns that are always gonna show up. In fact, just learning to figure out what positions someone is using, once you learn to pay close attention to detail, you can actually figure out what position harp players are using, even if they may be constantly changing harps because certain phrasing patterns are always gonna show up.
As far as speed playing, the first you need to remember is don't play with a hard breath force because playing too hard kills the accuracy of the intonation and articulation of what you're doing, gives you crappy tone, plus whenever you play phrasings that require rapid fire alternating blow and draw breaths, like Charlie McCoy's uptempo version of the Orange Blossom Special, from the force and momentum of playing too hard slows you down considerably and is kinda like dragging a huge boat anchor around your neck that was designed for the Titanic while trying to run a 2 minute mile at your fastest possible speed and whenever you're doing that, you're shooting yourself in the foot non stop.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1810 posts
Jul 10, 2014
12:16 PM
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My take on Poppers rapid style is that he is breathing a pattern (inhale/exhale) while moving the harmonica - combining the two to create his unique sound.
So, he may not have had a preconceived notion of the notes he wanted, but rather accepted the notes that spilled out of the harmonica while he rapidly inhaled and exhaled while moving the harmonica back and forth.
This is not to say it was completely random, but there is a method to his madness - coordinating the breath with the harp movement.
Rumor has it then when he started showing up at jam session in NY a long time ago, he went for this velocity, but the result was pretty awful sounding. To his credit, he kept to his approach and eventually the barrage of notes took form as sounding - not awful -, but unique.
In a way, it seems to me that he has developed one real fast solo and references it over and over again in many different songs, with small variations.
Not my particular cup of tea, but can't deny his talent and commitment to his sound.
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The Iceman
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Ted Burke
62 posts
Jul 10, 2014
12:50 PM
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I would sometimes get blasted for resorting to "patterns" when I solo--not from other band members but casual listeners to my videos--with the rather harsh declaration that it isn't really improvising and that learning and performing note patterns was an easy matter. My defense was that the observation that I play in patterns is obvious on the face of it, but the patterns were mine, hard won, created and honed and modified over many years of obsessive practice and public performance. Popper has patterns that are uniquely his, as did Butterfield, Little Walter, Sugar Blue, Adam, Jason, Howard Levy, Carey Bell and any other harmonica player with a recognizable sound worth listening and stealing licks from. "Patterns" for the developed player are not just rote reiterations of note sequences over a given chord progression, they are unique configurations, like the lines and arcs and circles artists demonstrate in their canvases, or in the cadences and imagery a particuarly great poet would grace his readers with. The point is that every player wants to have their ideas sound spontaneous, in the moment, performed at will, and patterns , ideas unique to the individual player, are only evidence of the dedication, discipline and love of the instrument the harmonica player shows toward his art .
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walterharp
1448 posts
Jul 10, 2014
1:00 PM
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start here and go through the 4 parts
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Nibiria
25 posts
Jul 10, 2014
1:47 PM
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In addition, how much would music theory help me with this? Any? Not much?
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wolfkristiansen
292 posts
Jul 10, 2014
2:11 PM
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Nibiria, your post is about to go sideways. I apologize. Eventually, I hope, someone will bring your post back to what you want to talk about.
I play patterns. Not especially fast. I don't know about music theory helping, but you might start by copying some patterns you like, and then varying them to suit your tastes.
Here's why a jumped in though:
From Ted Burke-- "Popper has patterns that are uniquely his, as did... Little Walter"
Forget about Popper, let's talk about Little Walter. My take on Little Walter-- one of the characteristics that mark him as a genius is that he did NOT play patterns. Every solo, every accompanying lick was different from recording to recording. He stood above the rest by virtue of his imagination; his creativity.
So, Ted Burke, this is a friendly challenge-- point me to the songs that show he used patterns. I am open to being educated.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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Slimharp
349 posts
Jul 10, 2014
2:13 PM
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Most of it are patterns.
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The Iceman
1813 posts
Jul 10, 2014
2:42 PM
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I disagree. LW didn't play patterns, but ideas. If he played patterns, it would be easy to hear the beginning of one and then predict exactly what he would play next.
Pattern playing tends to lose the interest of the listener after a short period of time for the most part.
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The Iceman
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Ted Burke
63 posts
Jul 10, 2014
3:34 PM
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@wolf: LW had a revolutionary approach to the instrument that is instantly recognizable and which had a profound influenced on generations of younger harp players after him. That we can agree on, I think;this lines up well with what I've already written:"...Patterns" for the developed player are not just rote reiterations of note sequences over a given chord progression, they are unique configurations, like the lines and arcs and circles artists demonstrate in their canvases, or in the cadences and imagery a particuarly great poet would grace his readers with. The point is that every player wants to have their ideas sound spontaneous, in the moment, performed at will, and patterns , ideas unique to the individual player, are only evidence of the dedication, discipline and love of the instrument the harmonica player shows toward his art . "
If you're looking for concrete proof as to whether he did resort to patterns or not, I offer a friendly suggetion that you take this up with someone who loves moot points. I think it's a matter of how you define patterns. I have offered mine and will leave it at that.
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Frank
4793 posts
Jul 10, 2014
5:47 PM
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Iv'e read that Very Famous Master Musicians generally tend to rely on the same certain handful of notes that they use consistently and creatively throughout their careers which gives them their distinction as original, unique and recognizable :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 10, 2014 5:48 PM
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STME58
983 posts
Jul 10, 2014
10:28 PM
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Frank, is 12 notes a handful?
Harry Partch was not satisfied with twelve so he came up with a 43 note scale. I am not sure if Mr. Partch is a Very Famous Master Musician, though more people have heard his music than know his name.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 10, 2014 10:29 PM
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Komuso
345 posts
Jul 10, 2014
10:41 PM
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If you're deconstructing what determines someones "style" I think a fundamental level before patterns is composed of elements such as tone, phrasing, melodic approach etc. Patterns are just nice repeatable (and variable) sequences built on this foundation.
To extend Ted's painting analogy patterns are shapes (ie: melodic contour) but style is composed of color palette (ie: tone), brush type (instrumentation), painting technique (phrasing/melodic construction - incl breathing, also related to tone) and canvas (musical form)
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Jul 10, 2014 11:05 PM
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boris_plotnikov
981 posts
Jul 11, 2014
1:35 AM
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The key advantage of Richter tuning is it gives very musical pattern playing (this is the biggest reason I keep sticking with richter).
How to get it:
Get D-minor playalong (blues or funk or latin) with simple 1 to 3 chords progression (e.g. 12 bar blues or just one chord vamp). You can use band-in-a-box or iRealPro.
Start with easiest draw-draw-blow pattern in triplets:
-4 -5 5
-5 -6 6
-6 -7 7
-7 -8 8
-8 -9 9
-9 -10 10
and backwards
-10 -9 9
-9 -8 8
-8 -7 7
...
-5 -4 4
Practice it up and down till you'll be familiar with it. Then try to play it in different rhythms (8-th, 16-th, starting from different beat), try to change directions in any place - up and down. Then add rests and work on phrasing.
This pattern going down to 1-st hole works perfect in country-blues and jazzy blues (without too accented blue 3-rd).
The similiar blow-blow-draw pattern works perfect in 1-st position.
There are bunch of another similiar variations, e.g. paradiddle.
To all who tell it's boring and "Pattern playing tends to lose the interest of the listener after a short period of time for the most part.":
1. John Popper's playing is most popular pro harmonica playing on a stage for today. I hear a lot of energy and I see full stadiums of listeners on youtube. Yes, harmonica is not the only great thing of the band, but it's very (if not most) improtant part. For me Popper is #1 now.
2. Pattern playing is another tool. It can be both musical and unmusical, depending on groove, tone, phrasing, and of course amount of this patterns. They are so cool, that when you realise how to use them it's too easy to overuse them for first time. I realised it some years ago and still tend to overuse them when I'm tired or hardly hear myself onstage.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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Komuso
348 posts
Jul 11, 2014
2:09 AM
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Different people can play the same pattern but it's the phrasing that makes the difference
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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CarlA
566 posts
Jul 11, 2014
4:40 AM
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nibria "o my question here is threefold: first, how would I develop my own patterns? Is this an accurate description? And how can I practice to the point that I can play quickly without flubbing the notes? "
1. You will develop your OWN patterns by experimenting with what YOU think sounds good. This is what will define you from the rest!
2. Yes.
3. You will be able to REPRODUCE the exact notes at rapid speed consistently and accurately. This is how you know your not just "flubbing" the notes.
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Frank
4797 posts
Jul 11, 2014
11:33 AM
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No, not 12 notes...half that. In other words, they became (POSITIVELY EXPERT) at manipulating a handful of notes in their "own unique" way - phrasing those 5 or 6 notes in Creatively Masterful ways throughout their careers. Sure they used other notes, but only a hand full where used as their meat and potatoes, putting their name on the map and paying the bills :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 11, 2014 11:41 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
333 posts
Jul 11, 2014
10:08 PM
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Listening to Sonny Terry, Sonny Boy Williamson and all that 12-Bar stuff is naturally going to lead to developing patterns. When I became aware of the depth of this and the void in my actual knowledge of the theory of the instrument I started trying to work more in the direction of filling the void. I think I started regressing, so now I try to find a balance.
I have heard some jazz guys say, "there are no bad notes, just some I would rather not play again". I have never heard of a signature sound built around a specific set of notes. I'll have to listen more closely.
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jnorem
373 posts
Jul 12, 2014
12:35 PM
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I think what we're talking here, correct me if I'm wrong, are breathing patterns rather than melodic patterns. Using learned breathing patterns in a routine way to string lines together seems lazy to me, and I think Iceman's analysis of Popper's playing seems pretty accurate.
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Call me J
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STME58
986 posts
Jul 12, 2014
11:36 PM
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Frank, at first I thought you were being tongue in cheek about the handful of notes. After all there are only 12 in the western scale. Form you response I see a hint of something else but I am thinking modes, 5-7 notes selected from the 12 create a mode which can be thought of a a pattern of playing with a handful of notes. The same set of 7 notes out of 12 can be one of 7 modes depending on how you put the patterns together. What is the difference between taking the notes C,D,E,F and G and playing a pattern that makes D the home note (Dorian Mode), and the kind of signature pattern a Master musician would use?
I am also wondering how micro-tonality, like in Partch's instruments, might fit into this. Most instruments besides the keyboard instruments have at least some ability to bend notes to create things like the blue third, effectively increasing teh number of notes available up from 12.
I heard an article on the radio the other day about how easy it was for a programmer to create a computer algorithm that could analyze a composers work and then create new works that sounded like that composer had written them. This certainly suggests that there is something to this pattern thing.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 12, 2014 11:38 PM
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HarpNinja
3900 posts
Jul 13, 2014
5:38 AM
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I talk about this a lot on a series of YouTube vids that will resume now that Midwest Harmonica Workshop is complete. I taught several classes that dealt with patterns.
The trick is to use patterns as embellishments and riffs to get to different places on the harp. Don't just play them running up and down the Harp as your default style.
I would suggest learning to develop melodic phrases and in see ring patterns for some flash factor like an 70's metal guitarist. Phrasing is king and patterns are just a way to give you something to phrase around.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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The Iceman
1824 posts
Jul 13, 2014
8:52 AM
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Well stated, HarpNinja.
How was that Workshop?
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The Iceman
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colman
312 posts
Jul 15, 2014
8:17 AM
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I BEEN PLAYING 46 YRS. and assimilated licks and patterns from every good blues i hear...and after all these yrs.i feel that developing the many vibratos ,gives the sound that you are different than all that you learn from...good harp players sing on their instrument,just like all other players...
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Frank
4822 posts
Jul 15, 2014
8:25 AM
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Preach it Colman, sumpin like this - Do you play this one :)
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Frank
4826 posts
Jul 15, 2014
12:24 PM
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