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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
*a special word from your host re: bad behavior*
*a special word from your host re: bad behavior*
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kudzurunner
5082 posts
Oct 27, 2014
9:40 AM
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Dear Forum Membership:
First, a word of thanks to our three terrific moderators: Nate, Todd, and Peter. This forum is a much better place than it would be without them. They are patient, generous, and spirited.
I don't really know what other forums are like. I contribute regularly to only one other forum (it's dedicated to running). I contribute sporadically but regularly here. I leave most of the day-to-day moderating duties to the moderators.
Although the forum rules may seem bloated, archaic, and weird, they really all boil down to one rule: treat each other civilly. Precisely because I want this forum to be a place where people are free to disagree vigorously with each other without becoming enemies, brawling, and bashing each others heads in out in the (metaphorical) street, it's extremely important that forum members honor the call for civility.
Civility doesn't rule in many parts of the world, nor does it rule in many parts of the web. But the moderators and I are determined that it will rule here.
What does civility mean? It means three things.
It means that you're not allowed to say "Fuck you" to people who piss you off.
Nor are you allowed to call them names: "idiot," "bitch," "my bitch," "fatty," and so forth.
Nor are you allowed to threaten them in any way--i.e., with physical violence or online revenge or humiliating submissive poses or combinations of those sorts of things (i.e., "Suck my dick, you fucking fuckhead.")
It's that simple. Those three behaviors all constitute what are generally known as fighting words. We don't tolerate fighting words here
You're allowed to disagree strongly with anything that anybody says. You're even allowed to say "You're flat-out WRONG, dude."
The more this forum allows itself to become a space for passionate debate, the more important civility becomes. I actually believe that forceful challenges are the way we learn new things, all of us. But we can only have those debates, those disagreements, if the disagreements don't become personal--i.e., if we all agree to remain civil. Often this means taking a deep breath and walking away for a little while. Often it means deciding that the point of debate is not to humiliate other people by casting them as ignorant in everybody else's eyes, but educating them, and us all, by sharing information clearly and making convincing arguments for why it's important.
There are, of course, all sorts of behaviors that aren't particularly civil but that aren't clearly forbidden by the forum creed. Snide insinuations, for example. Corruscating sarcasm. And of course, the combination of those two things. (I can think of one member who bears a four-letter name and whose every brief post, more or less, combines those two things.) This forum would be a better place if folks who make a habit of dogging or inciting specific forum members and/or engaging in low-level antisocial behavior would just let that go. We're better than that.
Blues harmonica players are not an easy tribe to wrangle. The moderators do a superb job, regardless, of keeping something like order. Every now and then I am forced to step in. I would rather not step in. I'd rather just have vigorous debates. We had one about the issue of streaming recently, and I believe that it was, by and large, a model for how we can take care of business. I certainly learned a lot from it, and was forced--not unhappily--to modify my strong claims as a result of strong, thoughtful, and civil arguments from other points on the compass.
Please have fun. But please keep it civil.
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walterharp
1548 posts
Oct 27, 2014
10:30 AM
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ah the fight.....
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Hakan
464 posts
Oct 27, 2014
12:04 PM
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The latest incident was treated quite well by the moderators I think. One week blocked from the forum could be seen as a rather balanced "punishment".
Having said that I also wonder if it's better just to throw trouble makers out "for life" because they are making great damage to the forum. That is probably the most time-saving activity. And it's also a clear signal.
Håkan
Last Edited by Hakan on Oct 27, 2014 12:06 PM
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harmonicanick
2183 posts
Oct 27, 2014
12:46 PM
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fair enough Kudzu, glad to be back
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ZenBlues
1 post
Oct 27, 2014
1:52 PM
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I would like to point out that the moderators themselves have done some questionable things based on their "priveledged" status. A friend of mine who has since been banished from this forum, once sent an email to one of the moderators at the moderators private email. What was said about the site in the email was not exactly positive, but it was supposed to be private.
Mr. moderator CHOSE to cut and paste the dude's email, ripped on him for all sorts of ridiculous reasons, and didn't even have the guts to allow the guy to respond and defend his position.
So, please don't pat yourselves on the back too generously, moderators. You guys pull some childish crap too.
Last Edited by ZenBlues on Oct 27, 2014 1:56 PM
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eharp
2245 posts
Oct 27, 2014
2:59 PM
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Personally, I thought the initial outburst, which was uncalled for, would be reason for banishment.
But it is a moderator's call.
Anyway, as I see it, if someone calls you a name or swears at you, turn the other cheek. Ignoring it does 2 things:
1) keeps the thread on topic.
2) makes the instigator look even worse.
Didn't some character say, "Be good to each other"?
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isaacullah
2865 posts
Oct 27, 2014
3:16 PM
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@eharp: I think is was actually, "Be excellent to each other." :)
We've all gotten into it about some topic or other with someone at some point in the storied halls of the MBH forum. But, as Adam points out, the key is being able to get into it without getting personal. Moreover, that ability is a *skill* that one needs to learn, practice, and build upon. It's not a talent. Some of us are in lines of work that requires that skill (academics is certainly one of them, but there are others too), so we comport ourselves differently than folks who've never cultivated the skill of arguing without getting personal. Is it too much to expect all members of an internet forum to have and employ the skill of argument without personal attack? In a perfect world, no, but in the real world, probably. That's why there are rules and repercussions. Humans need punishment and reward in order to stick to the rules. Basic game theory shows that as a general trend, time and again and in many cultures. Same goes for the internets...
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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Blocker
154 posts
Oct 27, 2014
3:50 PM
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Great contribution Mr ZenBlues hope you feel better now. Its a fair effort to go through the application process just to make that one comment....bravo!
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kudzurunner
5084 posts
Oct 27, 2014
5:57 PM
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Look, Rick (Davis), I've told you not to try and scam us. "Zen Blues"? Really?
Only joking, Rick. You and your crazy self are always welcome here.
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indigo
7 posts
Oct 27, 2014
8:26 PM
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Rick Davis and hvj both back in the same week..things are looking up ;-)
Indigo
The member formerly known as Jehosaphat
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2plankr
66 posts
Oct 27, 2014
9:40 PM
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It's not so much what was said but the timing of the post. Jack is gone and we should be honoring his memory. Whether or not you agree that he was the most significant bassist of his generation is a fair enough argument. Just not at this time.
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jbone
1792 posts
Oct 27, 2014
10:27 PM
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I have overstepped on this forum in the past and been called to task for it. Rightly so. My response was to apologize to kudzu, the mods, and the offended party, and act right. A forum would never need mods if we could all practice the outlined civility kudzu espouses. Ah but we do have feet of clay.
I try these days not to jump on a particular side in a debate unless I know my facts or have real experience in a situation. Even then, many times I have let a thread go by when I saw emotions running high. My question is always, can I help in some way? Some posters I pretty much never read their posts since they have proven to be on some other page.
I love the feature here that we help each other and offer new experience, new artists, new techniques, and so forth. I need that perspective and the information that is with it. I hope some of my ramblings may help someone in turn.
At the end of the day what we have here is a rich and varied forum, with a lot of good members and some hard working- and human- mods. I have not been a part of this good a harp forum, ever. Until Adam made this one that is. I'm not willing to fight to keep this joint, what I AM willing to do is, stay reasonable, offer my help, and support my peers where I can. To my mind this is how we keep a good healthy forum going.
My hat is off once again to Adam and the mods. Keep doing what you do guys.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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nacoran
8071 posts
Oct 28, 2014
12:05 AM
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Zen Blues, that could be one of a couple cases that involved me. One was a time when I was receiving harassing emails from a banned member that I shared with the forum. Had the offender lived closer I might have shared them with the police. At no point in the email did he ask that I not disclose them and at no point did I agree to not disclose them. Threats don't get free privacy.
The other time, if it involves Rick, that was cutting and pasting back and forth trying to get things smoothed out, at some ridiculous time in the morning. The moment I hit send I realized I'd cut and pasted more than I intended to. It was an, "Oh Fuck" moment that I still kick myself for. I also had a famous blow-up with the late Chris Michalek many years ago. 7 years and I still keep track of my f-ups in my brain.
I'm certainly not perfect. I always try to be an honest broker when it comes to supporting the site. I'd take back the exchange with Chris if I could, and would have been more careful with what I shared from Rick. Even although I did take back the email share, I took it back because I thought it made things worse, particularly because I let a troll get to me. It is worth noting though, that I'm perfectly fine with sharing harassing emails if I think it shows someones true colors. There are two camps around that issue. Some people say engaging a troll just eggs them on, but in a small community like the harmonica world where people really aren't anonymous it's possible that outed bullies will suffer real world consequences and that will discourage the behavior.
Apologies again to Rick. I knew he was venting and he thought I was a safe set of ears. I had no intention of sharing what I shared- I was actually trying to patch things up. I just highlighted more than I meant to and didn't proofread.
But if it's the other guy, yeah, he's not telling you the whole story, not by a long shot. After we discovered he'd snuck back in we let sleeping dogs lie, but then he started taking snide potshots pretending we couldn't see him.
Oh well, it's late again. Probably not the best time to be rehashing this. We are human. We screw up. Call us out on it, politely, if you see it. Don't be cryptic, and don't assume you have all the facts. A lot goes on behind the scenes, but we are always open to honest critique or our moderation.
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Nate
Facebook
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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timeistight
1655 posts
Oct 28, 2014
12:32 AM
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"It's not so much what was said but the timing of the post. Jack is gone and we should be honoring his memory. Whether or not you agree that he was the most significant bassist of his generation is a fair enough argument. Just not at this time."
I don't get this. Why is it okay to the newly did were the best ever but not okay to say they weren't quite? And how much time must pass before we can exercise our critical faculties again?
Last Edited by timeistight on Oct 28, 2014 4:04 AM
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kudzurunner
5085 posts
Oct 28, 2014
6:07 AM
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@timeistight: The point of this forum--apart from the strict proscription on fighting words--isn't to tell people what they can and can't say. It's to figure out a way of making your displeasure clear WITHOUT fighting words when another forum member does something that terribly offends you.
I personally found nothing wrong with atty1chgo's desire to qualify the large claim made by (grieving) Ted Burke about Jack Bruce's importance as a bass player. But Ted found it terribly offensive, and he expressed his displeasure in a way that clearly went beyond the pale--which is to say, was clearly, unambiguously in violation of this forum's creed.
atty1chgo, in turn, responded to Ted's outburst in a way that was also far beyond the bounds of civility.
It is inevitable that other people here will push our buttons, even when they're not trying to. The question is: can we remain civil when they do?
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 28, 2014 6:08 AM
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florida-trader
544 posts
Oct 28, 2014
6:36 AM
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Here’s my two cents on the subject of civility. I’m no different from anyone else in that at times I am greatly tempted to respond in anger or cutting words when I disagree with something that has been posted. Ironically, my very first post on this forum more than three years ago was a defense against an attack on my fledgling business. For those who are new to this forum just Google “Wood Comb Warning” and you will see what I am referring to. Those of us who engage in a harmonica related business occupy a unique position in that it makes sense for us to mind our P’s and Q’s lest we offend a potential customer. While at times I dislike feeling like I have to “walk on eggshells” with my comments those thoughts quickly vanish when I realize that my business forces me to be a better version of me - to elevate my thinking – and I like that. I have been in professional sales for over 30 years and have trained literally hundreds of salespeople. One of the things I always trained my salespeople to do when faced with a difficult situation is to be “Painfully polite – but very direct.” Don’t mince words. Don’t hem and haw. Just make your point without making your customer feel offended with either your words or your tone of voice.
So what does that have to do with the Dirty-South Blues Harp Forum on MBH? Well, collectively we, the members of this forum, are, in fact a “product.” The question boils down to one of do we want this forum to thrive and grow or do we want it to die a slow painful death? Bickering and hostility will only scare away potential new members for fear if they offend some member of the forum with 1000+ posts they will be vilified. It will also reduce our numbers because even the guys who have been hanging out here for years will drift away one by one. Left unchecked, all that would remain would be the antagonists and protagonists. They would have the entire forum to themselves. Conversely, showing mutual respect to one another and “agreeing to disagree” with civility makes this forum a more attractive “product” which will not only attract new members but encourage existing members to be more active. This is not to say we should always agree with each other. Quite the contrary. William Wrigley Jr. said, “When two men in business always agree, one of them is unnecessary. Business is built by men who care – care enough to disagree, fight it out to a finish, get the facts.” Hearing different points of view helps us learn and grow. But it has to be palatable or as listeners, we just turn off.
MBH is widely recognized as one of the best harmonica-centric forums on the internet – period. Essentially, we are all ambassadors of this instrument we love and this forum serves to amplify that fact. How we present ourselves to the world does have an impact. SPAH stands for the SOCIETY for the PRESERVATION and ADVANCEMENT of the HARMONICA. The name says a lot. This is not SPAH but many of us are members of SPAH and support the goals of that organization. It behooves us all to conduct our affairs in such a way as to bring out the best in each of us and to attract like-minded people.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Oct 28, 2014 6:39 AM
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JJ Harper
28 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:09 AM
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I emailed Rick Davis and told him to look at this thread. He wrote back, asked me to post this:
“No, that’s not me. If I wanted to re-join the forum I’d send a request, but I don’t so I haven’t. I’m way too busy.
I’m disappointed in Adam that he would falsely accuse me of deceit. Surely he can see the IP address of every post and he knows that is not me.
The Memphis Mini amps are selling very well! Thanks to all the forum members who have purchased the MM. I’m happy to answer any questions and support the amp via email at info@memphisbluesamps.com.”
Last Edited by JJ Harper on Oct 28, 2014 8:10 AM
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Tuckster
1456 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:13 AM
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I thought it was a good call to banish both members for only a week. They both contribute a lot of good stuff to the forum and rarely are they contentious.
I try to treat fellow members as if I were sitting beside them at the bar having a beer.
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groyster1
2703 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:25 AM
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I am a liberal in the red state of east Tennessee....I have decided to cease and desist from heated arguments from conservatives....I was born left and at 64 years will never change...youjust have to agree to disagree
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Goldbrick
743 posts
Oct 28, 2014
9:06 AM
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Its the moderator's call.
Leave it at that
the why cant we all get along thing is kinda played
Just follow the rules or accept the consequences
Here come da Judge ( with some great tunes from the Judge era)
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Oct 28, 2014 9:08 AM
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kudzurunner
5086 posts
Oct 28, 2014
9:43 AM
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JJ: Of course it wasn't Rick. That's why I said "Only joking." I'm not a touchy-feely guy, so I didn't also use an emoticon, but I thought that my humorous intent was clear. Not to you, apparently, and not to Rick.
But hey: we're all being civil! :)
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NathanLWBC
13 posts
Oct 28, 2014
11:29 AM
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I would like to add that I was pleasantly surprised that the thread on streaming was able to remain cordial despite the sharp disagreement. It's a rare forum where you can actually disagree with someone and it not descend to baseless personal insults.
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--Nathan Heck
Lead Technician, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
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mlefree
214 posts
Oct 28, 2014
12:50 PM
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Well, Adam, it is good to tether the group back to the intent of the forum rules. But...
Apparently, since I read not a single word regarding it, by its omission from your list of inappropriate behaviors, sexist behavior is fair game herein.
Why is it that I feel the need to remind even the owner of this site that, by any ~acceptable~ modern standard, language or behavior that demeans women is not to be tolerated?
As my regular participation attests, I really enjoy both the content and my participation in this group. But I can't help but notice that I seem to be the one of the only females who is a fairly regular participant. Maybe that's because I have a thicker skin than most?
In any case, I think (and who cares what I think?) that Adam and his forum administrators might ask themselves two questions:
1) Do you ~want~ this to be strictly a harmonica "man cave"?
2) If not, you might then ask yourselves why it is that so few female blues harpers join in the fun on the Dirty South Blues Harmonica forum?
I realize that by head count there are far fewer women than men who play blues harp. But it would be difficult to argue that the fractional participation of women on this forum is in any way representative.
To be fair, I don't often see language that ~I~ might be considered to be offensive to women on here. But the somewhat confrontational, cantankerous behavior that I think gave rise to Adam's post ~is~ fairly frequent and does not create a hospitable environment for ladies. That's just a plain fact.
So, if y'all members feel that input from more women players might have some value, I'd ask you to think one last time about what you've written and the attitude in which you wrote it before you hit the "Post Message" button. You might ask yourself, "Is this the kind of thing I wouldn't my wife, girlfriend or daughter seeing that I've written"?
End of Rant. Thank you for your time.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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BronzeWailer
1499 posts
Oct 28, 2014
2:42 PM
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Michelle has a very valid point. A lot of the discussions quickly deteriorate into one-upmanship battles. I find this verbal violence off-putting and the participants never come off looking good.
Adam's Forum guidelines use the word "please" six times if I recall correctly. There is often a stark contrast between the civility of these and the language/attitude of posters.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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Frank101
28 posts
Oct 28, 2014
3:06 PM
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The overall forum guidelines that appear above the thread index do in fact specifically
include "misogynistic" among the prohibited behaviors.
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Meaux Jeaux
6 posts
Oct 28, 2014
5:19 PM
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My personal pet peeve/bitch are those who attempt to make beginners feel small or stupid. We were all beginners at some point. Hell, I remember when I got my first harmonica I thought all one had to do was put
it to their lips and music would come out, man was I wrong. It is my goal to encourage and help the beginner
in any way I can lest they give up on this marvelous instrument.
Peter
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nacoran
8073 posts
Oct 28, 2014
6:03 PM
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The problem with any list of rules is that you never can plan for every contingency, but you still have to try, bit at the same time you have to try to keep the list of rules manageable so people actually read them.
"Be excellent to each other" is great advice, but in practice it doesn't cover many contingencies.
Mlefree, we have asked ourselves that question on several occasions. We have issued suspensions when people have been across the line and asked people for input. It's a bit of a catch 22 though, because we really only have this forum to ask the question on, and there aren't many women here.
The internet is in an uproar right now with the Gamergate issue. People are being called all sorts of horrible things and threatened with all sorts of horrible acts for advancing ideas about gender roles that some people find controversial. Sometimes it's tough to frame this issues without causing more controversy, but it reminds me of a video I saw of a reporter out of Egypt. He dressed up in drag and walked around the city (Cairo?) unescorted. He was harassed and harangued and followed for blocks. There is a moment watching it where you feel smug that 'they' are so sexist over there while we are more civil, then you go to the web and you have this ah ha moment and realize it happens here too. Women are getting death threats for speaking up on gender equality issues. People who support them are getting death threats.
Thankfully, in our little corner of the internet things are a little quieter, but it is an important issue and we will keep trying to get better, because we are not perfect.
People are cliquey. They tend to congregate in groups that resemble themselves (case in point, this is a site for people who play harmonica). It helps us stay in our comfort zone, but it misses out on a lot of opportunity, because one of the best ways to learn is to be exposed to new ideas by people who aren't just like you.
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Nate
Facebook
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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A440
235 posts
Oct 28, 2014
7:10 PM
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Excellent point Michelle!
There may be more female readers here than some of you think.
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kudzurunner
5087 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:01 PM
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@michelle:
Please reread the forum creed. If you'd done that, you wouldn't have posted what you posted above. Rants are always potentially problematic
Grace, please. May we all extend each other a moment's grace, rather than assuming bad faith at every turn?
Thanks in advance.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 28, 2014 8:18 PM
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kudzurunner
5088 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:03 PM
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Here's the operative paragraph. Pay attention, all. (I tried to summarize things in my Sermon on the Mount, above, but apparently summaries are not effective forms of communication in all cases.):
"Please also note: although conversation about blues harmonica and related issues is not something that should be subject to the hectoring of the Nanny State, neither is this forum a men's locker room in which casual (or intentional) ethnic or racial slurs, anti-gay rants, nationalist cant, pointed and sustained use of four-letter words, and/or misogynist diatribes are welcome. (If you've got an occasional gripe about the missus or the hubby, of course, that's legit, but again: be sparing.) Some of us are black. Some of us are white. Some of us are Asian. Some of us are mixed. Some of us hail from countries other than America, or have family who do. Some of us are interracially married. Some of us are gay. All of us share a love for blues harmonica, and that is what brings us here to share a space in which we can express that love. This forum has a one-warning rule on such matters. It shouldn't be hard to figure out what that means. Share the love."
:)
It occurs to me that I should, for Michelle's sake, put the operative phrase in ALL CAPS, because there just might be a male chauvinist somewhere in the vicinity. So let me extemporize:
THIS FORUM IS NOT A MEN'S LOCKER ROOM. MISOGYNIST DIATRIBES--i.e., sustained attacks on women--ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE. It would also be a good idea to avoid casual sexism.
By the same token, as I tried hard to make clear in a recent thread, this is a BLUES forum, folks. Hot, sexy signifying language crawling kingsnake is a part of the blues tradition. Shake my peaches, baby. Boy in the boat. Mean black snake. All of that is OK. Please don't be prudes. Just no four-letter words, and especially no fighting words. Complaints about men and women, except for members of this forum, are part of the blues, too, and are allowed.
Many thanks in advance crawling kingsnake for your four bear ants.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 28, 2014 8:20 PM
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jbone
1794 posts
Oct 28, 2014
9:48 PM
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@Meaux Jeaux- Bravo Peter! You and I- and many others here- do know that if newcomers are not made welcome we will have less new input and less opportunities to help shape a new generation of harp players. If we can't give back what we've been given then who will?
I know for me, I had to be confronted when I got over the line a bit. I did in fact learn from my mistake and became a better member of this group as a result.
We need every member who walks in. This is how a group is enriched, by the collective experiences of the body of its members. I have never cared for an elite class of members who know it all but don't hand off tips and tricks and secrets to the new guys and gals. In any group that is a negative.
Peace to all.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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HarpNinja
3979 posts
Oct 29, 2014
9:18 AM
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Regarding the demographics of who participates in the forum, I would would counter with the hypothesis that it isn't related directly to posted content, nor would we find data to suggest that there is more gender (or racial, or socioeconomic...) inequity between members here than in 1.)other harmonica forums 2.) other music forums 3.) other online niche forums in general.
From what I do know of who posts here, I think evidence would suggest that this site is representational of the online harmonica community as a whole and not an outlier. I would hypothesize that it is almost totally relational and not causational.
In other words, under represented groups here are not a result of the board's culture at a significant clip if compared to other other outlying factors.
The fact that a lot of middle aged white guys have access to computers isn't the fault of MBH.
The idea that certain groups of people are isolated from the board because of the concious or subconcious posting habits of board members works under the assumption that everyone's identity and demographics are easily recognized.
For example, there are over a dozen posters to this thread and only a couple of them have any readily identifiable demographic information in their post - and gender would have to be assumed for almost all of the posters.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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HarpNinja
3980 posts
Oct 29, 2014
9:24 AM
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"I realize that by head count there are far fewer women than men who play blues harp. But it would be difficult to argue that the fractional participation of women on this forum is in any way representative."
Representative of what?
I would argue that same point for any group here. It only represents who participates in the forum and not who plays harmonica. I would go so far as to say the assumed key demographic - middle aged white guys from the US that like to play post war blues - is also removed from representing the majority of harmonica players.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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mlefree
217 posts
Oct 29, 2014
10:52 AM
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Look, folks. I don't want to debate this. I simply shared my perspective. It is just that -- my perspective. I shared it realizing I would probably be castigated for it. And guess what? I was. It was not an attack, just an observation. You can disagree but why must y'all get your hackles raised? Listening to someone with a bit of a different idea about things might actually be a chance to learn something.
Ironically the reaction to my post is a microcosm of the problem I tried to highlight. Folks on Dirty South come out with their guns smoking and then ask questions later. I've stated my perspective, which no one can deny. It is ~my~ perspective. Now I find myself feeling that I have to defend it.
@Frank101: Yes the forum creed does say that and yes I have read it, many times. But my response was to Adam's post, which as I said mentions nothing about misogyny. I'll stand by that. Instead of joining the discussion with something insightful or even relevant about the original post you chose to toss gasoline on a smoldering fire. This is what I am talking about in terms of the "tone" of many posts on here.
@Adam: As I said to Frank, I have indeed read the forum creed. But it was your post above to which I was responding. I still feel that the absence of any reference to gender-appropriate language or behavior in your post about forum civility is noteworthy. Also noteworthy is the manner in which you dismissed my concerns with first a sort of a Royal flick of the wrist, and then a pejorative-filled rant directed at me personally. All because I said something that you disagreed with? You are an academic. Where is the peer discussion, the exchange of knowledge and opinions?
@Mike: Say what you will about your opinion of female blues harper populations. I will simply point at the vibrant Facebook group started by Jason Ricci as a forum for the few of us. I happen to think that group is a bit ah, let's say "pablum" to fulfill my appetite for blues harp banter. So I participate here. But I posit that the vast majority of women members of Dirty South, if there are any, don't join in here and my question to you is, why? I would ask you to go back as many pages of history on our forum to identify some female posters. I myself couldn't find ~any~ besides... me.
All I did was ask y'all to think about why it is that so few women make an appearance here and if that is what you truly want, and I am attacked. Well, I am here to tell you that is precisely that sort of cantankerous, knee-jerk, come out swinging attitude could well be a good part of the reason for the lack of female participation.
I could be wrong, no doubt. But why is it that we can't even discuss this subject without rancor? After all, I'm only trying to help improve this group. But the impression I am getting is that female input is not only not wanted, but actively squashed.
Respectfully,
Michelle, apparently "The Lone Stranger."
PS: Adam and the Admin's, the easy way out if you don't want to hear what I have to say would be to just outright ban me. But I never violated any of your own rules, did I?
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Oct 29, 2014 10:56 AM
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kudzurunner
5090 posts
Oct 29, 2014
11:26 AM
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@Michelle: Perhaps it's churlish of me to point this out, but you concluded your long post above with "End of Rant." Perhaps that's an ill-advised way to characterize "just sharing [your] perspective."
As for your perspective: thanks! I've got you covered, m'lady, as per my ALL CAPS imperative above. You're always welcome here. Nobody's interested in banning you. If you're able to become a positive force here--and for the most part you've been that--I'll be even happier to have you aboard.
The reason I stressed the avoid-fighting-words concepts in my Sermon, BTW, is simply because that issue is, by far, what causes trouble for the moderators and me. So quite naturally that's the issue I selected as a core issue. Your primary concern is a different core issue--namely, sexism. You and I are two of the very few members here who are troubled by it. That's why I didn't foreground it. I trust that makes sense to you. The fact that I didn't mention it in my Sermon doesn't mean I'm not concerned about it. (I'm concerned enough that I long ago included it in the forum creed.) It's just not what causes most of the trouble here.
What causes a surprising amount of trouble, actually, is people immediately jumping on what they consider the missteps made by the forum administrators and I, rather than--when we seek to promote ethical behaviors--seconding our desire to bring peace and justice here and, in that spirit helping, suggesting ways of further broadening that mission. You acted in the former spirit rather than the latter spirit, frankly. You're not alone in doing that, but I was depressed by how quickly someone--i.e., you--felt the need to do that in this particular thread.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 29, 2014 11:39 AM
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Diggsblues
1598 posts
Oct 29, 2014
11:34 AM
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CarlA
623 posts
Oct 29, 2014
12:30 PM
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@michelle
List as many PROFESSIONAL (to keep things simple and in perspective) female harmonica players (that being harmonica as their "main" instrument)
Now list the number of professional MALE harmonica players. I think you may find your answer to your question there.
ps. This may help:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/blues_harp_gods.html
Last Edited by CarlA on Oct 29, 2014 12:34 PM
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nacoran
8074 posts
Oct 29, 2014
1:05 PM
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For the record, I don't know how many female members the forum has had. Christelle Berthon was once a member. Member Tin Lizzy,... Rachelle Plas joined briefly, but as I recall only to clear up that she was not Christelle (that was not one of our finer moments, someone was making remarks about her sexuality and getting it wrong to boot). There have been others, and I've seen several female names in the registration recently. I'm blanking on her name, but there was another female on the forum about the same time as Tin Lizzy was around. There are undoubtedly some who don't advertise their gender.
To answer CarlA's posit, yes, there are more male players, but I can name quite a few female players past and present who would list harmonica as their main instrument- Christelle, Tiffany Harp, Annie Raines, Rachelle Plas, Big Momma Thornton...
And of course you could extrapolate the question out a stage and ask why it is that more men seem to play harp. I try to evangelize harmonica to anyone who will listen- in fact I'm supposed to be figuring out a decent harp that I can clean up and am willing to part with for my neighbor's granddaughter. I've given them to a friend to help him quit smoking (didn't work, but it was worth a try). It may be one of those things, that if we want to change we have to do it from the ground up. That's too big a project for any one of us, or even any one site, but it's worth the effort. Harmonica is a great little instrument.
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Nate
Facebook
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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garry
539 posts
Oct 29, 2014
4:05 PM
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"you could extrapolate the question out a stage and ask why it is that more men seem to play harp."
or any instrument, for that matter. at least in the venues i frequent (local gigs and jams), there are few women performing, and most are singers. i've seen one female drummer, a couple of guitar players, and 3 violin players (counting professionals like anne harris and katy jacobi).
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kudzurunner
5091 posts
Oct 29, 2014
5:12 PM
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Carl's point seems to be that there are relatively few women participating in this forum because there are relatively few professional female harmonica players. But of course there are many sorts of players here, from professionals to rank beginners, and there are thousands and thousands of women around the world who play. So raw numbers alone can't explain the relative paucity of female participants here.
But the point is, number-talleys like that are irrelevant--at least to the point of the thread. The point is simple. I made it before; I'll make it again.
This forum should be a place where we aspire to disagree vigorously but treat each other civilly. The various rules all boil down to that. Sexist talk--rude, boorish, thoughtless, adolescent talk that demeans and/or stereotypes women--isn't civil.
It doesn't matter whether this forum has no women, one woman, or quite a few women. (Or gay people, for that matter. Or disabled people.) The creed still asks members to treat each other civilly. That doesn't mean I want a nanny state--and I've made that clear. I've got a fairly libertarian temperament. But civility is a good, justified, empowering ideal.
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isaacullah
2866 posts
Oct 29, 2014
5:43 PM
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Adam sez: "You and I are two of the very few members here who are troubled by [sexism]."
I'm also one of the very few, and to be frank, it's one of the main reasons I don't post here as actively as I used to do. This forum is FULL of subtle (and not so subtle) statements that make it inhospitable to women (and to a lesser extent other minority groups). As an example of the kind of micro-aggression's (read about that term: http://www.microaggressions.com/ ) that routinely get passed around this forum without any thought, I call attention to the use of the word "balls" or "ballsy". These are typically used when talking about an amp's or a mic's tone. What's the deal with that term? Well, for one, it's a bit childish, and it's a really lame way to describe a sound. What do balls sound like? When I read these statements, in my mind all I hear is the onomatopoeia of "flap, flap, flap". You know, like running in boxer shorts? Is that how you want an amp to sound? I think not! Rather, the intent, I'm sure, is to call to mind all sorts of "manly" adjectives, such as "strong", "aggressive", "robust", etc., etc., etc.... But you know what? Balls are none of those things! They are weak, tender, and not at all aggressive! The *real* reason that the term "balls" is used to describe sounds is that it is assumed (perhaps unconsciously) the sounds that are being described are *only* the purview of males and masculine pastimes. The implication is fairly obvious: "good" harmonica tones are masculine, and women have no business trying to make those sounds, so they better stay clear. Which is utter horseshit.
I think Betty White has pointed out this particular micro-aggression best:
“Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.”
Anyway, the point of all this is that it isn't JUST the obvious things that can make a forum a hostile place for a particular subgroup. It's the SUM of ALL the things -- little ones AND big ones -- that create the character of a place. If we want to include women (which I think is damn imperative), then we've been doing a heck of a poor job of it. The three women that Nate listed are the only others I can think of, besides Michelle, to have been members here. We've driven every. single. one. of them off. What's that say about us? I think it says we suck.
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 29, 2014 5:49 PM
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indigo
8 posts
Oct 29, 2014
5:48 PM
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Times change:
My mum would of fainted at some of the language used on the site.My wife very occasionally might use a bit of it if she's stressed..my daughter and her university friends would of made my (ex sailor) dad blush.
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Frank101
29 posts
Oct 29, 2014
6:46 PM
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Allow me to formally object to mlefree's insulting and totally incorrect characterization of my post.
Misogynistic posts are clearly and specifically forbidden by the fundamental forum rules. That misogyny is not condemned specifically in every single post discussing forum behavior does not somehow constitute an endorsement of misogyny. It should be pointed out that the posts which sparked this thread discussed the recent death of Jack Bruce and contained zero misogynistic content. So it is hardly surprising that kudzurunner's post regarding those comments do not include a reminder that misogyny is not tolerated.
kudzurunner's OP states that the general forum rules can be boiled down to one: "treat each other civilly." Perhaps that is something that should be "read many times."
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Goldbrick
747 posts
Oct 29, 2014
7:16 PM
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So now men here are not only sexist and insensitive to minority folks we are old, living in the past and lazy.
This is a slippery slope.
Shoulda just left it at stay away from fighting words and try and treat each other civilly. And I say civilly because where many of us grew up, respect is earned and not a right.
We all come from different backgrounds and have different slants on what is acceptable-- you are not gonna convert anybody.
Just follow the rules if you wanna play the game.
"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
John Wayne- the Shootist
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Oct 29, 2014 7:32 PM
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mlefree
218 posts
Oct 30, 2014
10:04 AM
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I think I'll just let this dog go to sleep and hope he lies there.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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CarlA
625 posts
Oct 30, 2014
10:22 AM
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" mlefree
218 posts
Oct 30, 2014
10:04 AM I think I'll just let this dog go to sleep and hope he lies there.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com"
You just can't please everyone. I think you are best to drop it
(Or start your own harmonica blues website, perhaps call it "Michelle's Blues Harp- Justice and Equality for All")
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kudzurunner
5092 posts
Oct 30, 2014
1:57 PM
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Carl: The last sentence of your post above is precisely the sort of thing I started this thread to discourage. I urge all forum members to take a good hard look at it, appreciating the way in which you're sneering at your fellow forum member and telling her to disappear rather than agreeing, civilly, to disagree with her.
I realize that some people take the sort of gentle, humorous urging to behave that I offered at the beginning of this thread as an incitement to keep on misbehaving in the same old way, but I truly hoped for better.
"This forum would be a better place if folks who make a habit of dogging or inciting specific forum members and/or engaging in low-level antisocial behavior would just let that go. We're better than that."
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 30, 2014 1:59 PM
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CarlA
626 posts
Oct 30, 2014
2:38 PM
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@kuzu
@michelle
My apologies.
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sustaireblues
42 posts
Oct 31, 2014
7:47 AM
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I love the Betty White quote posted by Isaacullah!
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mlefree
219 posts
Oct 31, 2014
10:35 AM
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Thank you Adam, and Carl, too.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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