isaacullah
2905 posts
Jan 12, 2015
2:29 PM
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Howdy folks! As promised, here's a video comparing the new "Progressive" Special 20 with one from before the change. They are both brand new, and in the same key. I play them both, head-to-head, and I open them up and show you some of the changes side-by-side. What do I conclude? Well, watch the video!
PS. In case you don't want to watch, the short story is: there are couple of differences, but nothing that changes the fundamental way the harp plays and sounds.
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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Steve Harvell
183 posts
Jan 12, 2015
3:03 PM
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A very good review and comparison , thank you for taking the time to do this :)
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orphan
390 posts
Jan 12, 2015
3:16 PM
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Thanks isaacullah. I got one of the SP20 5 pack a couple of weeks ago. All of the harps had huge gaps. After profiling and gapping, they sound great. Thanks for the Vid.
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dougharps
809 posts
Jan 12, 2015
6:31 PM
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Good comparison! Thanks for doing this. When I learned that Rocket reed plates would soon be the only replacement plates for Special 20s as well as Rockets I had wondered if they would also be found on the new Progressive Spec. 20s. Apparently not, so far...
Your video was very helpful. I seem to get a lot of harps that I need to adjust to tighter gaps. Was the beating on the octave there before you adjusted the gaps? I understand that changing reed gaps can sometimes cause pitch changes that may need retuning.
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Doug S.
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Rontana
21 posts
Jan 12, 2015
7:17 PM
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Thanks lots for this. I'd been wondering what (if any ) difference there would be.
I agree . . . the art deco back cover was very cool. Kinda' hate to see that go.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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arzajac
1551 posts
Jan 13, 2015
7:36 AM
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Well done, Isaac! A lot of folks were worried about their favorite harp and a video like this will put them at ease.
A few folks have mentioned the wider gapping of the new models. While not 100 per cent consistent, there seem to be a lot of folks bringing that up. I wonder if the gapping is intentional?
I remember speaking to John Hall of Bushman harmonicas about gapping. He said he increased the gaps on his harps from the factory before he sold them. He said that because his harps were more durable, he targeted players who played hard. I'm not saying Hohner is doing the same thing, just putting that out there...
About the new screws, the clearance holes in the new comb are smaller. So, you can put the new plates into an old comb - the smaller screws won't be a problem. But you can't put old plates into a new comb (would you want to?) The (old) bigger screws won't go through the new comb clearance holes. Drilling the comb to enlarge the holes is probably a bad idea.
I suppose if you really wanted to, you can use the new screws along with M1.6 nuts (instead of using the thread in the draw plate) to re-use your old plates on a new comb.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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isaacullah
2907 posts
Jan 13, 2015
9:19 AM
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Thanks guys! Glad it was helpful! I, myself, was curious to see what, if anything, had changed, so I'm glad I could make that info available to everyone else too...
@dougharps: Thanks for the insights about the out-of-tune 1-4 octave. I've definitely experienced that effect on other harps (where changing the gapping affects the tuning), so you are right that it's like what's going on here. Probably it's due to one gap being wider than the other. I can likely solve it by making sure to set the gaps of the 1 and 4 to be equivalent.
@arzajack: Good ideas/info about the screws. Yeah, it's probably not a great idea to attempt to drill out the holes in a plastic comb! It's probably melt a bit from the friction, and that could lead to warping in the vicinity of the hole. Bad! The other thing, however, is that you can't "mix and match" reedplates from before and after the change -- at least, not without drilling out the holes in the new set to match the old. One might want to do that if, for example, they put a ton of reedwork into an old Spec 20, but need to replace several draw reeds, and so they wanted to just replace the draw reedplate while retaining the blow.
It also strikes me that the tendency of the smaller screw heads to put more acute pressure on the reedplate might be offset a bit by using small washers? Or m1.6 nuts UNDER the screw head? Just a thought...
Yeah, I, too, wonder if Hohner is currently setting the gaps high on purpose. Is that part of the "progressiveness" of the harp? Lol!
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barbequebob
2813 posts
Jan 13, 2015
10:48 AM
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Actually the whole idea of gapping them higher because of hard playing makes prefect sense because often times, the average player tends to play quite a lot harder than they think they do and without the higher gap, the note would choke and blank out on a hard player quickly on a lower gap setting, and the smaller gap works better for players who either plays overblows or doesn't play hard at all. Trying to find the so called "happy medium" is a challenge and what works can be a tough thing as I've seen some overblow players consider themselves hard players, but by comparison to those who REALLY play incredibly hard, the overblow player's hard breath by comparsion is quite soft by comparison to those who really play so hard all the time that they constant blow out harps at a really rapid rate (and the vast majority of those players never overblow).
BTW, on those older cover plates, they all used to say Marine Band in smaller engraving when they were introduced in 1974 because they were originally intended to be a replacement for the MB, but obviously that never happened.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Todd Parrott
1288 posts
Jan 13, 2015
12:09 PM
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When I saw the picture of the new Progressive Special 20 covers, I didn't like them at all, but after seeing one in person, I actually think it's a nicer, more modern look. The new Golden Melody covers also have the same seals and things on the bottom cover.
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Gnarly
1211 posts
Jan 13, 2015
10:39 PM
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You know, folks, change happens . . .
You might want to get used to it . . .
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Jim Rumbaugh
1081 posts
Jan 14, 2015
6:25 AM
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I have a problem I'm working through and I need advise
My Progressive 4 blow reed (D) went out after 90 days, The warranty is 60 days. I'm a novice at reed replacement. I have pulled a reed out of an old special 20 and installed it, but the reed seems too wide. I've used my .0015 feeler gauge on each side of the reed. I just don't see any light on the sides and can't get a good note or plink. I'm about to go searching for another reed.
Any advice on SP20 reed swap?
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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chromaticblues
1655 posts
Jan 14, 2015
7:32 AM
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Good vid Isaac.
I have to agree with your conclusions.
Why change the coverplates? WHY?
Why put vents on the Rocket?
The screws I understand. All the new screwed together diatonics are going to have these. So that makes sense.
I haven't had a chance to look at the "E" harp I received in traded with isaac yet.
I'll do so soon and share my thoughts here.
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arzajac
1554 posts
Jan 14, 2015
8:47 AM
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"My Progressive 4 blow reed (D) went out after 90 days, The warranty is 60 days. I'm a novice at reed replacement. I have pulled a reed out of an old special 20 and installed it, but the reed seems too wide. I've used my .0015 feeler gauge on each side of the reed. I just don't see any light on the sides and can't get a good note or plink. I'm about to go searching for another reed.
Any advice on SP20 reed swap?"
What key harp did you pull the reed from?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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A440
298 posts
Jan 14, 2015
9:31 AM
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The Rocket I bought was also HUGELY over-gapped out of the box.
Its a shame.
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Jim Rumbaugh
1082 posts
Jan 14, 2015
11:37 AM
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@ARZAJAC
I pulled from a C to put in a D (I think??? 80% sure)
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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orphan
394 posts
Jan 14, 2015
11:55 AM
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Jim, I tried a 4 blow reed(D)from a SP20 D on a SP20 C for hole 4 draw (D). It was too short. Richard Sleigh has a conversion chart for replacing reeds. I should of checked it first lol. Probably info on Pat Missin's site too.
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arzajac
1556 posts
Jan 14, 2015
11:55 AM
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Jim, on any Hohner harp made these days, the reed dimensions change at Dd. So the dimensions of the 4 hole reeds are different between harps in the key of C and D.
You would need a 4 blow reed from a D harp or a 6 Blow reed from a G harp (same reed).
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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isaacullah
2908 posts
Jan 14, 2015
12:42 PM
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You can always trim a long reed to size. Just hold it in place in the empty reedslot, aligned to the hole in the rivet pad. Use a sharpie to mark the reed, up through the reedslot, right up to the end of the reedslot. Then, clip it off at the line (You can use a nail clipper for that, but wire cutters work a bit better). Just make sure to trim it at a 90 degree angle to the reed length!!! you will likely have to tune this replacement to the proper pitch, but, in my experience, it's generally pretty close to what you were going for. This technique opens up many new donor possibilities, and stretches the utility of your harp boneyard...
BTW, I've used reeds that I trimmed to length in several harps, and they seem to work very very well. YMMV.
PS. Thanks, all, for the continued kind comments about the OP. Glad that it's been useful!!
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Jan 14, 2015 12:45 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1083 posts
Jan 14, 2015
12:45 PM
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@ARZAJAC
Thanks, I'll stop wasting my time. I may have a G, or maybe not
@Orphan
Thanks , I'll check for a chart
I don't mind re-tuning, I just want it to fit.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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orphan
395 posts
Jan 14, 2015
12:54 PM
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Your welcome Jim. Try this link for Sleigh's PDF:
http://rsleigh.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Organize-Your-Reeds.pdf
Edit to add: My apologies to isaacullah. Sorry for the off topic posts. I will keep any more posts on topic.
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Last Edited by orphan on Jan 14, 2015 12:58 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1084 posts
Jan 14, 2015
12:58 PM
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@ISAAC
What you described is what I tried. Even the wire cutters. But the read width, not length is my problem.
I have only done 2 other replacements. Those 2 did not have a width problem, though I did trim and re-tune.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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isaacullah
2909 posts
Jan 14, 2015
1:22 PM
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Ah, I see! Yeah, that's a problem then... You'll need a donor reed of the correct width...
@orphan, no worries! :)
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harpwrench
965 posts
Jan 14, 2015
1:34 PM
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That hole has the longest reed in the narrow slot, if you're trimming a reed it will always be too wide. But you can tune down a reed that fits if you have one.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Jan 31, 2015 6:26 PM
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9000
211 posts
Jan 14, 2015
1:44 PM
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I've seen several posts on various threads about the larger gaps on the Sp20 and the Rocket. Has this gapping
migrated to other models?
Thanks,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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Harmlessonica
1 post
Jan 14, 2015
3:08 PM
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Great video Isaac, thanks for sharing.
It's interesting for me as I actually own a 'Progressive' Special 20. I bought it a few months ago when I thought I should take my learning more seriously; it seemed to be the generally recommended key of C model for beginners. I didn't even realise the 'Progressive' moniker denoted any kind of re-issue.
Well - at the risk of alienating myself from a community I only just joined (!) - I have to say that the experience was anything but progressive...
First off, I had trouble with single notes - in that I could barely get even a single note out of the thing! I started whisper soft in breath then increased pressure to test responsiveness. Most holes didn't even sound, others only when I blew hard and then the sound was either too loud, or else squealed like a dog whistle. I tried to persevere over a few days - hoping it needed breaking in - but the sound was so awful and disruptive to the family that I had to give up on it. I was bitterly disappointed and considered giving up learning altogether. The only progression this harmonica made was back to the box from whence it came.
I did realise even at that time that my Special 20 had 'Special Needs' which could most likely be resolved with some tweaking of the reeds, but I felt that I wasn't competent to do that - nor that I should have to for a so-called professional instrument.
Hopefully, this kind of experience is rare. In my case, I was stubborn enough to 'keep on harpin' - but took my business elsewhere and bought a Seydel Session Steel (in *Low* C this time) and had no such problems.
Now I'm addicted to low tuned harmonicas... but that's another story. :)
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SuperBee
2322 posts
Jan 15, 2015
3:09 AM
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over-wide gapping isn't limited to one model.
i have 5 marine bands recently purchased, verging on unplayable factory gaps. no big deal, easy fix and great harps, great value. i remember it was always fairly hit and miss until i learned to adjust the harps. these are pretty much the most consistently over-wide gaps i've seen though
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SuperBee
2323 posts
Jan 15, 2015
3:11 AM
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they did get quite good at producing playable harps ootb for a while...it'd be a personnel issue i expect. maybe someone retired.
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SuperBee
2324 posts
Jan 15, 2015
3:13 AM
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i dont believe harps ever need breaking in. they often need adjusting.
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isaacullah
2910 posts
Jan 15, 2015
7:12 AM
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Hmmm... The evidence is accruing. It seems like it's now become policy for Hohner to set very wide gaps on it's harps at the factory. I wonder if SuberBee is right; is it just a personelle change? Whatever is going on, I think they are doing themselves a disservice. A tidge wider gap is a good thing (as bbqbob points out), but TOO wide makes the harp unplayable. Not a problem for those accustomed to tweaking harps, but a huge deal for beginners like Harmlessonica. If Harmless's story is common, and I think it probably is/will be, then Hohner might just be shuffling a lot of begginers off on other harp manufacturers. Or, worse still, totally disencouraging new players, and causing them to give up in dispair!
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Jan 15, 2015 7:14 AM
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Billfish89
17 posts
Jan 15, 2015
11:01 AM
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Isaacullah -Thank you so much for that great video. It was very helpful!
I purchased 3 Classic Special 20s in mid 2014 and all were widely gapped. Fortunately gapping is a routine thing for me, thanks to Adam's and Joe Spiers videos on the topic.
Usually it was to open gaps, but the trend now is to close gaps, mostly the draw reeds, but also blow reeds.
I think that gapping is a great topic, worthy of a link of its own in the MBH Archive.
All in all the SP20 is a great harp and is by far my favorite model.
Harmlessonica- Welcome to the forum! The Session Steel Low Harps are very cool indeed. I have a Low F and I did open gaps on it.
Re: the Progressive SP20 reed plate w/ 2 extra holes, it looks compatible with newer MB deluxe, Crossover and TBird covers; do you think the reed plates from those models are compatible with Progressive SP20 combs, smaller screws & covers?
(I think' it was posted elsewhere that the Progressive SP20 reedplates are compatible with the Rocket?)
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Gnarly
1212 posts
Jan 15, 2015
11:06 AM
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FWIW, Suzukis are usually gapped low.
Still haven't seen the new SP20, but look forward to the experience.
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Honkin On Bobo
1298 posts
Jan 15, 2015
11:35 AM
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Thanks for the video Issac.
Unfortunately (for me that is), I would have liked to have seen a demo that featured the old Special 20 and the progressive as they are played right out of the box. no tweaking of any kind, especially gap adjusting.
The reason is I do no work on my harps. I play solely Special 20s right out of the box. Aside from the occasional blown out reed, I have no complaints. My main concern is that the new progressives are going to force me to work on all of them right out of the box, due to the different gapping I've been hearing about.
I have neither the desire, time nor aptitude to start learning how to work on harps. All of the time I have to devote toward the harp is used to try to sharpen my playing. This has led to significant boneyard of harps with blown reeds. I've learned to live with that, but if I've now got to make adjustments to every special 20 I buy, I'm just shaking my head as to why Hohner would do that (I've read the whole thread above, and am still not pusuaded this is a good idea). Are they trying to drive me, a long time customer into the arms of another manufacturer?
I am seriously pissed off about this.
PS: I noticed that MP is out of the reed repair business or else id send a bunch from my boneyard to him. I also checked out arzajacs website and he is apparently not taking on new customers for standard repair right now.
What's a player with no repair skills (or in this case tweaking skills) to do?
Suzuki or someone else may have a new customer soon.
Just shaking my head at this development.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jan 15, 2015 11:40 AM
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SuperBee
2325 posts
Jan 15, 2015
11:46 AM
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Hi Billfish. The sp20 combs/rocket combs aren't really all that compatible with marine band, deluxe, crossover plates because of the 'keying' on those combs. Sp20 plates have cutouts and the combs have protuberances which only allow you to assemble the harp the right way. You have to remove those protruding pieces from the comb to be able to use non-sp20 plates. And the plate mounting bolts don't line up, so you have to drill the plates.
Can be done; Tim Moyer used to build customs from sp20 combs and mb (classic) plates. I've worked on some and they were well-playing harps. Bit of a pill to work on though...
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 15, 2015 12:02 PM
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SuperBee
2326 posts
Jan 15, 2015
11:53 AM
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Honkin'; it's not really right to characterise this as an issue related to the 'new progressives'. People have noted wide gapping on lots of hohner harps lately. And I've also seen reviews of new hohners which said they were great. Even reviews of ootb progressive sp20s.
There are 2 things going on here. Hohner have made some small changes to the sp20 which are, in themselves, no big deal and don't effect the performance of the harp.
Secondly, there seem to be a lot of poorly gapped harps coming out of the factory, of various models.
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SuperBee
2327 posts
Jan 15, 2015
12:00 PM
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A couple of good screwdrivers and a toothpick, and access to YouTube is all you need. Adjusting reed gaps should be a non-issue for most folk. If you have vision problems or have difficulty holding and using tools, you will need a helper. For such people, if you're in Australia I'm happy to help if you pay postage.
this is a pretty nice instruction from Richard Sleigh
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 15, 2015 11:36 PM
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Billfish89
18 posts
Jan 15, 2015
12:32 PM
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Thanks SuperBee for that info. I don't think I will be trying that mod anytime soon, but good to know!
Harmlessonica, Honkin: I hear ya. While I am comfortable taking apart harps, I would MUCH rather spend my time on practice/play than tweaks.
I learned the basics (single notes, 4 draw bend) on Hohner Blues Harps, but I blew out 3 & 4draw reeds on those too easily. I tried a Marine Band in G, loved it, still have it. I got into SP20 in 2011 because of the positive reviews (comfort and playability).
I hope the recent gappings and unplayability concerns ootb get noticed and fixed by Hohner.
Last Edited by Billfish89 on Jan 15, 2015 12:32 PM
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Honkin On Bobo
1299 posts
Jan 15, 2015
12:55 PM
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Thanks for the info and offer SB, but no vision, hands issue here. Only a reluctance to pull out the screwdriver under the theory that every minute under the cover could be a minute working on my chops.
Well, that and my experience that tells me when everyone one says it'll take you five minutes that usually means it'll take you five hours.
Looks like I might have to just suck it up and learn how to work on these things. Ain't lookin forward to it though.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jan 15, 2015 1:13 PM
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isaacullah
2915 posts
Jan 15, 2015
1:34 PM
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@Honkin On Bobo: "Unfortunately (for me that is), I would have liked to have seen a demo that featured the old Special 20 and the progressive as they are played right out of the box. no tweaking of any kind, especially gap adjusting."
Yeah, I feel you. It was actually my intention of doing the comparison OOTB, but, and this is the really kicker, I actually couldn't do it, because the Progressive Spec 20 was literally unplayable. Meaning I could only produce tone from it by drawing incredibly hard, and I couldn't bend the two or three hole worth a damn. It was just grossly over-gapped. So, I had to fix the gaps first, just to be able to play it in the comparison video, so, naturally, I had to tweak the other one to be fair (even though it almost didn't really need any tweaking at all).
Hopefully the higher-ups at Hohner are now aware of this issue and QC will step up to change this.
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barbequebob
2819 posts
Jan 15, 2015
1:46 PM
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One thing you all need to remember is that when you're dealing with OOTB harmonicas of any kind, there will always be inconsistencies when it comes to things like gapping and tuning and if you were to get several different brands and then get five or more of the same brand/model, all in the same key, there is ALWAYS going to be some inconsistencies happening regardless of who makes them. For Hohner, the inconsistencies were FAR worse back in their really horrible quality years of 1981-1995.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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arnenym
335 posts
Jan 15, 2015
2:04 PM
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I got my 5-pack today.
They where very good ootb. Airtight and quite responsive.
I will do a little gap-job and they gonna be real nice.
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Harmlessonica
4 posts
Jan 16, 2015
4:24 AM
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@Billfish89
Thanks for the welcome! :)
@isaacullah
'It was actually my intention of doing the comparison OOTB, but, and this is the really kicker, I actually couldn't do it, because the Progressive Spec 20 was literally unplayable.'
Aha! So the answer to age old question of "Is the problem my harmonica or me?" actually wasn't me this time... Comforting to know.
One of the cool things about your video was watching you play a troublesome note and then simply prod it with a toothpick there and then, and play the same note straight after. I will certainly take a look at my SP20 again at some point.
As it happens, I did take my custom back to Hohner recently - when I saw a discount on the Thunderbird. I was amazed at the difference in build and sound quality, it played beautifully right out of the box. I was particularly impressed with the care and attention to the smoothing down of the reedplate edges. That said, one would expect no less for a harp costing around three times the price of a regular harmonica.
"Whaddaya want for 10 cents? Gasoline?" :)
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MindTheGap
486 posts
Jan 16, 2015
7:31 AM
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Harmlessonica I remember it was a bit of a shock to find that you could buy a harmonica like a SP20, recommended by everyone as a good old, quality favourite, and it didn't work! That you might have to take it apart and tweak about with it. But then that it wasn't that difficult, and you could do it in a few minutes with a scrap of paper and a toothpick. All part of the fun of the learning curve eh?
Now it's the reverse: when I get one that works straight off, I'm surprised at that. Like with that Lee Oskar I bought the other day. What, no toothpick?
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MindTheGap
487 posts
Jan 16, 2015
7:41 AM
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...and thank you Isaac for these reviews. They are really good with the level of detail. Particularly around whether any differences in how they play are big or small (like when you were comparing the blues bender).
If you are minded to do more, that would be very welcome.
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Harmlessonica
5 posts
Jan 16, 2015
9:50 AM
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@MindTheGap
Gapping might be fun if it happens to be your namesake... :)
I do have a sense of humour about it now, but I was inconsolable at the time... But it's certainly a lesson learned.
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isaacullah
2917 posts
Jan 16, 2015
10:24 AM
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@Harmlessonica: "One of the cool things about your video was watching you play a troublesome note and then simply prod it with a toothpick there and then, and play the same note straight after."
Lol1 I'm glad that was helpful! I thought it was a bit of a gaff, actually, and considered reshooting the video. I'm glad I left it in there, now!! :)
@MTG: Cheers, mate! I'm glad the level of detail seems appropriate. I never know if I am going into too much detail with these kinds of things... I definitely plan to do more, as time and budget allow!
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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Harmlessonica
6 posts
Jan 16, 2015
6:00 PM
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Totally agree with regards the level of detail.
A couple of months ago, I became increasingly curious about the Suzuki Overdrive. I searched high and low for a video review (as opposed to the promotional videos which are basically adverts).
Your review was the only one I could find, but that thorough and objective level of detail really helped me feel confident to take the plunge. I'm happy to say it's now one of my favourite harmonicas.
Keep up the good work!
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9000
212 posts
Jan 16, 2015
6:27 PM
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Are you guys seeing the wider gapping on the other Hohner models, too, or just on the Special 20 and Rocket?
Thanks,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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SuperBee
2328 posts
Jan 16, 2015
6:53 PM
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Jay, as noted in the above thread, wide gapping has been noticed on marine band 1896 also
but...normal gapping is also happening. its inconsistent
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 17, 2015 4:17 AM
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jiceblues
379 posts
Jan 17, 2015
3:36 AM
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are the progressive reeds and the classic reeds the same thickness and same size ?
I don't have the tools to measure it .
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SuperBee
2329 posts
Jan 17, 2015
4:16 AM
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same reeds. same reeds in marine band deluxe, crossover, 1896, golden melody, rocket, sp20.
the instrument is essentially the same. some cosmetic changes to cover plates, some drilling in reed plates so the same plates can be used on the rocket, and the reed plate bolts are now the same gauge as rocket, mbd and xover.
the gapping issue is coincidental and there is really no reason to consider it is directly related to the minor rebadging of the sp20. some folk have noted the correlation and assumed a link. the gapping however, is merely inconsistent. i do not believe it is intentional. i can cite several reports of well-gapped progressive sp20 purchases. as bbq bob has observed above, gaps have always been a crap shoot, sometimes better odds, sometimes worse. in the mid 90s they were awful, lately theyve been pretty good. just now they seem dodgy. not a ap20 issue imho. just a hohner issue
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 17, 2015 4:31 AM
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