hvyj, I'll second you on non harmonica lessons. Many times what I have learned in a trombone lesson directly applies to the harp also. On the other hand, some of the things I learned in theory classes I never fully understood until I started playing the harp years later. Learning the harp and understanding first hand a diatonic instrument has been very beneficial. I would say that a set of harps is the second best tool to help learn theory, after a keyboard.
Killa, your language analogy is a good one. There will come a time, soon, when you will need to jump into a conversation with the limited vocabulary you have in order to progress, even though you know you are going to make silly mistakes. When this time comes, the nature and supportiveness of the others in the conversation makes all the difference.
In San Diego, there is this wonderful thing called Slo Jam that meets once a month and allows new musicians to play with and learn from others in a very fun and supportive environment.
HVYJ. I really DONT know what notes i have and what notes i dont. But im figuring it out. I really don't think I need lessons. Not for this anyways. I sure could use em for the playing aspect, but it ll come in time. As long as I'm moving forward at a good pace i think I'm cool. For now.
I am actually very good at figuring things out on my own. Despite my current cituation. Lol.
Now that yall set me in the right direction Im on a roll, already. I may do a lesson or two once things get a bit heavier. But im still waist deep in basics. And like i said music theory related to keyboard is everwhere. I was having trouble finding it for harp. Because it didn't exist apparently. But everything is kinda falling into place now. I have a way to relate to it all now. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Stme .. i know what yall are trying to say about working with musicians. But like you said jump in with a limited vocabulary. And when the time comes. I don't yet even have a limited vocab.
That's all i was trying to say. Is that it's a bit ahead of me still i think. But im certainly looking forward to it. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Ok, to play out with other musicians in a jam setting to build experience you really don't need too know a whole lot to be able to function. I assume you know what harp to use fot the key that gets called. Knowing whether a tune uses major 7 or minor/dominant 7 is an important thing. But you can always ask.
Learn blues scale, major pentatonic scale and minor pentatonic scale. You can get an incredible amount of musical mileage using just those 3 scales. Play blues scale for blues, minor pentatonic and/or blues scale for non-blues tunes with a dominant 7th and Major pentatonic for tunes with a major 7th and be sure to avoid draw 5 and draw 9 on those tunes. That's it. Follow these rules of thumb, bring at least 7 harps with you and you'll be fine. I did this for several years not understanding anything the other musicians would say except for the key. To function well enough to jam, it's not important that you UNDERSTAND 7ths. just know whether a particular tune uses a major 7 or minor7 so you can apply the foregoing rules of thumb.
I have no idea what you just said. Lol. There yall go with them 7ths again.
Nah im kiddin. Kinda. I know the blues scale in 2nd n 3rd. And major in 2nd. And Ofcourse i know what key harps to use. In 2nd anyways. I'm not totally hopeless. Lol. And i can get by. Liked i said i do play with jam tracks. N i do ok. So i could play with a band, but, no matter how good it sounds sometimes, I don't wanna just be able to fit licks in, play the changes, and get by. It just feels like I'm ... well ... gettin by. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Killa, of course you are just getting by. That's the stage you are at and it is the same with everything we learn, riding a bike, ice skating, playing an instrument. How far we take it is up to us.
I would strongly recommend that you make a few recordings of yourself at this stage. What I have observed is that as ones understanding of theory improves and ones ear is trained, there is an impression that one is actually playing worse. Having recordings of yourself can give you a reference of where you were and may help keep you from getting discouraged thinking that with all the hard work you are putting in, you are just getting worse! When I listen to recordings I made a couple of years ago that sounded pretty good to me then, I can hear all kinds of room for improvement that I was just not capable of hearing at the time I made the recording.
I do make recordings often. And your absolutly right. I record licks i have made up the most just to not forget then, but i also record myself whenever I'm tryin to learn something new. As soon as i can barely get thru it without messing up. That way after working on it i can go back and listen to what i sounded like before putting all the practice time into it. Because your right sometimes you get lost in the sauce and everything you do starts sounding awful. But if you go back it can give u piece of mind.
I'll try to remember to do so with the scales as well. Good advice.
And i understand that its just where I'm at. But it seems many are perfectly fine just getting by. To me it feels like I'm impersonating a harp player. Lol. Not really, but i think you know what i mean. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I hate to stretch this out even further. But i just want to put this out there again for anyone in my same position. MUSICTHEORY.NET great site. Breaks everything down very well. It's much easier to understand it on a keyboard. The harp is only pieces of the scale. Without bends and OB. But the keyboard is all layed out. It's exactly the thing i was missing. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 09, 2016 5:31 AM
Those resources are a good foundation. And it sounds like you are off and running with your keyboard.
I thought sure I'd pointed you at Jerry's lessons on Youtube. Even though you've already purchased the CD set, you still might want to see Jerry deliver those lessons.
I hav e special place in my heart for Jerry Portnoy's CD set. After trying all the others (Glover, Musselwhite, Gindick, Barrett...) Jerry and his CDs were the key to unlocking the door to blues harmonica for me. If you look, I wrote the first review on Amazon and have championed his Masterclass with such furvor over the years that Jerry contacted me and sent me his music CD (also terrific).
You're on your way, Killa.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 09, 2016 9:11 AM
I find that using intervals is a big help in learning and knowing the notes on any particular key of harmonica. Knowing about intervals is useful in many other areas of music as well. Intervals are simply the space between notes.
Here are examples of expressing the notes of a major and a minor scale in intervals.
When yiu're comfortable with the notion of intervals, here's a nice video that explains how they can be used for the diatonic harmonica.
Mike Will's Diatonic reference explains how intervals can also be used to describe splits and octaves. Search the page for "intervals" to see the many examples. (This page has a TON of other useful information as well.)
Yea ive seen his online videos. There good but kinda limited i think. Well they are kinda just beginner vids. I do like the way he teaches, but he also talks a bit slow sometimes. Lol. But between you, Snowman, and others. I have high expectations of his dvds.
As far as ordering books and lessons, it's always so hard to tell if it's going to be some mickey mouse basic thing or real deep hearty material. I don't mind shelling out some money for good lessons. But it kinda takes the wind outta what your doing when u go at something full force and end up getting a crappy lesson.
Sorry to blab on and on about this. But ive been trying to figure this stuff out for a while. I have given it a go a couple times with barely anything to show for it. Its so frustrating trying to learn something and the best thing you can find reads like stereo instructions. I learned more from an intro to guitar youtube set i watched a few months ago than any harp lessons. The guitar videos are what finally explained the basis of the notes and scales to me. I just wanted to learn a few guitar cords to play some blues to backup my harp. Never got real serious about it.
But the keyboard is an amazingly effective tool for learning music theory. I can't thank yall enough. I'm flying through this material now.
Edit: ill have to come back to that stuff above. I haven't started leveraging knowledge to the harp yet. Im not far off, but ive only been working on it for a day. So. ..lol. But thanks looks like Good info ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 09, 2016 9:55 AM
Killa, don't get disappointed when you find that the lesson content in those videos is identical to that on Jerry's Masterclass CD set. The CDs do contain additional material like play along examples.
Anyway you consume them, Jerry's lessons are golden.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Portnoy's stuff is effective for teaching techniques (like how to get the three 3 hole draw bends by subvocaliziing certain vowel sounds). But, overall, his subject matter is style specific (blues) position specific (second) and very artifact oriented (shakes, choo choo trains, etc.). He also places a great deal of emphasis on tongue lifts which are useless in positions above second and useless for most styles of music but gut bucket blues. So...while his instruction is high quality, his subject matter is musically very narrow in scope due to the limited applicability of much of what he covers. But on fundamental technique his teaching is very high quality. I guess it depends what you are looking for. In a lot of situations, tongue lifts would sound very unmusical but, of course, they sound great if you are playing certain styles of blues.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 13, 2016 12:41 AM
You should definitely check out Michael Rubin's stuff – It used to be called "Meat and Potatoes" but it looks like he might have renamed the video series. Anyway, its a huge series of lessons based around theory specifically relating to the harmonica. He starts of with some basics and goes on to cover scales, chords, modes etc, www.youtube.com/user/michaelrubinharmonic
Ok thanks. I will. Alot of people have mentioned this. I did a quick search for it before and didn't find much, but ill dig a lil deeper. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
hvjy, I've been giving a lot of thought to your most recent comment about Portnoy's lessons and re-interpreting what I said in light of Killa's OP.
We're basically in agreement. You are quite correct, depending on the level of the particular "student." IMO the Portnoy Masterclass teaches the fundamentals of playing blues harp. 2nd position all the way. He prepares a newer player for taking his/her own next steps. I personally am very fond of it both for the way it set me free and because I find it a very effective teaching tool.
It's admittedly not a tool for learning 3rd position, which is what Killa asked for. And it's not steeped in a lot of theory. But learning how to play and choosing notes to play it does convey, for me at least.
Sometimes I find myself replying not only for the OP but also for the benefit of people who may read or follow a thread downstream. Forums like this are excellent ways to document a wide variety of responses to a question. I love searching the archives here and at Harp-L.
And since this forum has, again, IMO, taken the lead and become ~the~ place for vibrant, informative discussions about blues harmonica, I place high value on the richness of its archives for a long time to come. So sometimes when replies diverge a bit I find myself losing sight of the original question.
Thanks for keeping me on point.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Yea well i wish yall came to this realization BEFORE i bought the videos. ....lol. damn. O well, I'll get out of em what i get out of em. It's not always bad to revisit the basics. Surely ill get something out of them.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Portnoy's 3 CD instructional set is not a waste of money. His instructions on how to handle the 3 hole draw bends is worth the price all by itself and there is a lot of other high quality explanation of technique.
Personally, I find it bizarre that so many instructional materials ignore positions above third or characterize them as being exotic or rarely used. I am a multiple position player, and I could not function in a gigging environment with professional musicians without using fourth and fifth positions routinely. I do not claim to be great at it, but I'm no worse at it than I am in second position and I'm by no means great at that. But IMHO you need more than just first, second and third positions to be able to get around with competence musically. And it is not difficult to do. It's just playing the instrument in different keys, which is something that musicians who play other instruments do routinely.
The reason I bring this up is to point out that Richter tuned harmonicas are, of course, diatonic instruments which by definition do not provide a 12 tone chromatic scale which presents challenges for playing in different keys since I don't OB. According, I consider my performing instrument to be my entire set of 12 or 13 harps. It's a different way of thinking about how to approach playing the diatonic harmonica. Now, modes are diatonic scales. So, modes are playable diatonically. In my experience modes naturally relate directly to how you handle position selection for playing different material in different keys. For me, FWIW, it was understanding how to use modes in the context of different types of music in different keys and how modes relate to different positions that unlocked the relationships of positions to one another and how to select what position to play particular tunes. But there are also other ways to go about it.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 10, 2016 8:45 AM
Meat and Potatoes Harmonica is a beginner's book that discussed techniques and basic theory, Paypal michaelrubinharmonica@Gmail.com $20 for a hard copy, $15 for a PDF. My videos dealing with theory are archived in order on my website, michaelrubinharmonica.com I have videos that talk about technique, I think they are only on Youtube.
When I give lessons, I teach technique, theory, songs note per note, improvisation by feel, ear and knowledge, harp history and help you develop a personal philosophy concerning what good music is. So it is kind of funny to me that I'm known as the theory guy, but I guess I created the image. I'd love to do Skype with any of you.
Also, if you want to get a weekly or so free educational email just send me a message and ask to join The Meat and Potatoes Harmonica Club at michaelrubinharmonica@Gmail.com
Now that I've plugged myself, I want to say I've seen great theory lessons from Yerxa, Barrett and Sankey and I think the Harp Handbook by Baker is great.
Rubin your videos are great. They were a little hard to find on youtube. Thanks for posting the site.
Can you tell me exactly what material is covered in your book? Or to make it a shorter list ... perhaps what is covered in the book that is not in your videos. As far as theory goes anyway. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I may do a lesson with you in the near future. Thanks for puttin these videos out. There gold.
Just so you know, some of the links on your site are wrong. The second video link took me to the C harp and the keyboard lesson. Which i think is lesson 5. I found the second video by looking in the recommended list on youtube, but i just thought ide let you know.
Thanks again.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Killa, Winslow's Books are both treasure troves of information with very little overlap. Another extraordinary reference book that has me coming back year after year is "The C Harmonica Book" by James Major. You can get the other keys, but they are the same book with all the notes, scales, arpeggios etc. transposed. A keyboard is absolutely the most user friendly instrument on which to gain an understanding of scales, chord theory, etc. My first "language" was guitar, but even a little dabbling on keyboard was an enlightenment! If you want to learn third position, you can find the 3rd position minor pentatonic scale in many locations. Then, in order to integrate it, I cannot think of any better practice model than the one described here.
hvjy, by way of explanation, there are those of us who enjoy such genres as pre-war harmonica, Piedmont and gut bucket blues who don't share your need to be a multiple position player. I have no aspirations to be an overblow player. I feel it is challenge enough to channel my time and energy into playing those genres as best I can.
That is by no means dismissing your lament re: the paucity of multiple position learning resources. I play other instruments like bass harp where that is also the case. But, in a way that's good for what ails me. It's forced me to go back to basics and use material from other instruments (mostly bass guitar since there's so much of that). Making myself as a total ear player learn some music has been a really good exercise for me.
I have a friend who is embarking on becoming a multiple position player. Would you mind sharing some of the learning resources you have found towards that end?
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 11, 2016 2:07 AM
Chris L. Thanks for the insight into the books. I was curious about the overlap. The C harp book sounds like a good one. I feel if i can fully get down one harp, the other keys should be no problem to leverage the info to.
I have seen Jasons video. A few of his third positon vids. I actually met him last night for the first time. Him n JJ played a gig by my house. It was unbelievable. Small lil acoustic gig.
But yea that's what i need. To be able to intigrate it. So thanks.
Michelle I'm not an overblow player yet either. I don't really even have a huge draw to it. However getting that 6 OB down is definatly something I want in my bag o tricks. Some of them feel more necessary that others. That's all I'm saying. Alot of them are overused. Some people seem to play them just cause they can. And force them in.
Diggs .. where can i find out more about these teachers you speak of? ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
@killa there is Seth Holzman he lives on the mainline and me I live in West Philly. You can see my stuff at www.youtube.com/diggsblues This is mostly playing and not teaching. ----------
@mlfree: I get what you are saying, and, btw, I have no ambitions to learn to OB, either. But I enjoy the interaction with other musicians and I like playing various styles of music. In order to keep up with the musicians I play with I need multiple postions to be able to roll with flow. In general, I prefer more contempoary grooves and styles to old timey material. But my primary duo plays Delta blues, Piedmont Blues, bluegrass spirituals and stuff like that which is usually played acoustically but we play electric with pedalboard effects. Now, in that band, we do "Hesitation Blues" the Rev. Gary Davis/Hot Tuna tune which is Piedmont blues. I use 5th position for that tune and I don't think I could play it otherwise.
As far as multiple position playing is concerned, there ain't a lot of decent instructional materials out there. THE HAL LEONARD COMPLETE DIATONIC HARMONICA METHOD by Bobby Joe Holman has scale tab for multiple positions that is helpful. Certain of Will Wilde's vids on Youtube are very sound. I like to think the common beath patterns tab I put on my profile page is useful. The out-of-print book, THE HARMONICA ACCORDING TO CHARLIE MUSSELWHITE has charts of multiple position major scales that are conceptually stimulating but not all that useful in a practical sense.
Oher than that, you gotta teach yourself. If anyone is interested, I'll come back with some suggestions on how to go about that when I have a little more time than I do right now.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 11, 2016 6:13 PM
If its knowledge ill take it brother. 5th position is a little far field for me at the moment, but my ears are always open. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Thanks, hvjy. I haven't tried the Hal leaonard book but I do have the Musselwhite book and I agree about it. I keep it mostly for nostalgia reasons.
I won't commit to devoting my life to it (which is what seems to be required) but I am interested in your suggestions. I do want to learn fifth position.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
A lot of what you already know playing major keys in second position can be adapted to playing minor in fifth. Just resolve on blow 2, 5 and 8 and avoid draw 5 and 9 (unless you'r playing a country-tuned harp).
Wayfaring Stranger is a good tune to practice fifth because it modulates to the relative major in the chorus, putting you back in second for a couple of bars.
Last Edited by timeistight on Feb 12, 2016 10:52 AM
Not to be overly nitpicky, but POOR WAYFARING STRANGER is one of the tunes we play in my duo, and it doesn't quite reach the relative major when it modulates. The original tune is in A minor, the chorus is in F major. The relative major to Am is F#.
But timeistight is absolutely correct. If you can play 2d position you already have the skill set to play 5th. When u are starting out, though, don't bend anything besides draw three and don't bend that anymore than a whole step. The breath pattern for playing minor pentatonic in 5th is identical to the breath pattern for major pentatonic in 2d. Just use blow 2 for root instead of draw 2. It's easy.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 12, 2016 11:05 AM
Indeed it is. F# major has six sharps; A minor has none!
The F-C-F pattern in the chorus of Wayfaring Stranger is IV-I-IV in C. It then returns to A minor via the E7 (the dominant).
Last Edited by timeistight on Feb 12, 2016 1:14 PM
I thought a relative major was your uncle, the Army field officer. His 14 year old daughter is then of course, your relative minor. It has been noted before that one must be careful when approaching the minor of a major. If you are not prudent you could find yourself diminished.
Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 12, 2016 1:05 PM
My bad. F# minor is the relative minor to A MAJOR. Duh... I must have experienced momentary dyslexic interlude and got it backwards. But, that's good since now I have no excuse for not modulating to the relative major on the chorus.
OK, to understand why and how to play multiple positions, it is very useful background to understand how positions relate to modes. In a moment I am going to put up a long post laying out these relationships. Don't worry about it if you don't understand modes. I'll explain those in simple practical terms later. The next post is just to provide context to those who may be interested. I figured this stuff out myself using diagrams of what notes are avaiable on which holes on Richter tuned diatonic harmonicas in each of the 12 keys, and knowing what additional notes are available as bends. I don't OB.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 12, 2016 11:43 PM
Relationship of Harmonica “Positions” to Modes (Playing a diatonic harmonica in different keys)
A Richter tuned diatonic harmonica can be played in different keys or “positions” which are numbered sequentially corresponding to the intervals of the Circle of Fifths.
C Harp can be played in the following keys: 1st Position- Key of C 2nd Position- Key of G 3rd Position- Key of D minor 4th Position- Key of A minor 5th Position- Key of E minor 12th Position- Key of F
Each of the above mentioned “positions” corresponds to a particular mode. Playing in that position does not necessarily mean that one is playing in the corresponding mode, but in that position it will be possible to play all the notes of the corresponding mode somewhere on the harmonica without having to bend any notes in order to do so.
First Position: C harp in key of C C Ionian mode (do-re-mi scale) can be played without bending on hole 4 blow through hole 7 blow. Useful for tunes with major sevenths and major thirds. Can get minor sixth by bending draw 6. Sometimes referred to as “straight harp”.
Second Position: C harp in key of G G Mixolydian mode can be played without bends on holes blow 6 through blow 9. This is the most commonly used “position” and is sometimes called “cross harp” G blues scale, G minor pentatonic scale and G major pentatonic scales are easily played using bends. This is the position used by most harmonica players most of the time.
Third Position: C harp in key of D Minor D Dorian mode can be played without bends on holes draw 4 through draw 8. Good for Dorian minors. Can also be used for major key blues using bends. Can be played in D major in lower register using bends. Third position is the most commonly used position for playing in minor keys, even though it not always the optimum choice.
Fourth Position: C harp in key of A minor A Aeolean mode can be played without bends on holes 6 draw through 10 draw. Used for playing natural minors. Can be used for harmonic minor by bending draw 6 and draw 3 for major 7. Must bend draw 3 a whole step to get root in the lower octave. This is also a “straight harp” position,
Fifth Position: C harp in E minor E Phrygian mode can be played without bends on holes 5 blow through 8 blow. But very useful for playing natural minor if one avoids the flat second (which is draw 5 and draw 9). Can get major second by bending draw 2 and blow 9. Can also use it for Dorian minors by bending draw 4 to get major sixth. Can be used for harmonic minors by bending blow 8 to get major seventh. BTW, flat fifth is available at draw 3 half step bend and blow 10 full step bend. All in all, a very flexible "position".
Twelfth Position: C harp in F F Lydian mode can be played without bends on holes. 5 draw through 9 draw. Useful for playing tunes with a major 7th. Can bend draw 6 for flat third if desired, so both the major and minor third are available. Must bend Draw 2 a whole step to get root in the lower register.
Any harp can be played in any of these “positions”. For example, an Ab harp can be played in the following keys:
1st Position- Key of Ab 2nd Position- Key of Eb 3rd Position- Key of Bb minor 4th Position- Key of F minor 5th Position- Key of C minor 12th Position- Key of Db
An Eb harp can played in the following keys:
1st Position- Key of Eb 2nd Position- Key of Bb 3rd Position- Key of F minor 4th Position- Key of C minor 5th Position- Key of G minor 12th Position- Key of Ab
Etc. The same breath pattern is used to play in a particular position no matter what key the harmonica is in. So the intervals and degrees of the scale in each respective position are located on the same holes of the harmonica no matter what key of harmonica is being played.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 13, 2016 12:40 AM
BTW, there is also Sixth Position, C harp in B, which corresponds to Lochrian mode. Lochrian generates a minor/diminished scale. It has its uses, but I don't really understand them and just never tried to work them out.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 12, 2016 6:03 PM
That is quite a treatise. I'm a gonna have to study this one for some time. It's LOADED with gold. It's so succinct as to belie the amount of information therein.
You've obviously gone to a ton of work here. We are all indebted, myself at the top of the list.
Many Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Yes i second that. So much about all that side of the harp is confusing. Alot of info to digest. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Another useful position is 11th, e.g., Bb on a C harp. You need a couple of overblows to play a full, two-octave major scale, but you can get around that with octave shifting. You can make it bluesy by bending the thirds (1 draw and 4 draw).
There's a Chris Michalek lesson on YouTube on using 11th position.
@Killa: If you've got the natural chops for playing harp, then play your heart out and learn as you go. If you want to play with a symphony orchestra, go chromatic and spend all day practicing scales and studying theory. But first and foremost, have fun! Try out different genres and find what you really like and what you do well. It's not just about learning to play 12 positions on one harp or seeing if you can bend draw 3 until the reed fatigues. It's about making music you enjoy making. What I enjoy most is the guy who doesn't read a lick of sheet music, could care less about tabs but can play from the heart and make you actually "see" the music. Buy all the books you want, but never stop having fun!
