I've been doing a "cheating" vibrato for years now because I never really been able to do it except on blows (where it is not very useful). Recently, I've taught myself to do a decent throat vibrato on draws...but I seem to run out of air really quickly. I'm not taking separate breaths or anything, so not sure why I would run out of air. Any advice/thoughts? -Rusty
Are you breathing harder when you do your vibrato?
I'm no expert, but when i do my throat vibrato it more like pulsating the throat. Its kind of hard to explain, but try doing it while playing very soft n quiet. If you can do it then, i think your on the right track. Surely those with more knowledge will weigh in , but that's what i got.
I suppose it actually changes with what speed and effect im going for. Sometimes it's like the inward cough. Sometimes the expanding throat meathod. I think ..... i never really thought about it. I just kinda do it. But try at low volume and be mindful of the amount of air you're using. It shouldn't take any more air to do a vibrato than to play a normal sustained note. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 6:06 AM
I'm with Rusty on this; been trying to work on "real" (throat) vibrato for a while now and I'm a-strugglin'. Will Wilde describes throat vibrato in a Youtube video as like a little kid making a machine gun noise "ah-ah-ah-ah". I can kinda get that to work on exhales, but on inhales something changes in my throat, and the "machine gun" effect seems too small or subtle (this might be because I just can't control it yet).
I believe it was Adam's advice re using a metronome that has me making progress. I've started slowly, very slowly, two of Will Wilde'sWilde's ah-ah's per beat, and gradually sped up, tho only as fast as I can control it. I do four, six, sometimes eight beats per note, first on blow, then draw, one thru ten, up and down 2-3 times. Has definitely gotten faster. I found early on that on the inhale my throat tired quickly and control suffered. It's not a natural movement. Over time it's strengthened considerably. I've begin varying the scale, jumping around. Still a challenge to use it naturally in a song, but much improved. ---------- Phil Pennington
Last Edited by Fil on Mar 21, 2016 8:11 AM
Well the machine gun is a good start. But i feel like if your trying to close it too hard or too fully, thats what takes too long and sets your rythm off.
Its hard to describe. But basically if you are articulating it to the point where your throat closes eg. Ak ak ak. That takes too long to do and doesnt seem to sound natural. Basically if you breathe in lightly yet evenly with an "Ah" sort of mouth shape, then stop your breathing by closing your throat or a better description might be "by letting it close" but still kindof trying to breathe in (it should feel very natural, not forced. Dont tense you neck muscles or anything.)
If you get that, then try to get it so your throat doesnt close off all the way but maybe like 80%. Then flutter it. Idk if that makes sense. But i hope it helps.
It seems like my technique is diffetent for draw and blow aswell. It seems you can get away with totally closing the throat of when blowing. Idk I'm not trying to confuse anyone. Just maybe dont totally leverage your blow vibrato knowledge. Treat it as a seperate technique and see if that works.
I had a much longer description typed up, but it was rather confusing. Maybe sound bytes would help more. Ill try to figure out how to post em when i get home ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 10:29 AM
What everyone calls the "throat" is actually your vocal folds (aka vocal cords aka glottis) that sit atop your windpipe. They're amazing flexible, and they're what you use to speak and sing.
The machine gun analogy, which I've used in the past, can get you going in the right direction, but when you make that sound you're also massaging your tongue against your soft palate. And it's a little too extreme to create vibrato -it separates the airstream into a distinct series of notes.
Throat vibrato is anchored in something called the glottal stop. I'm going to use a ! - an exclamation mark - to indicate a glottal stop.
Think of a Cockney Englishman saying that. Instead of a "t" sound, he'll sort of swallow the "t" and say "glo!al" by closing off the airflow with his glottis at the point where the "t" sound comes.
Try whispering !ah, !ah, !ah, !ah, starting each "ah" with a glottal stop. It's as if you're trying to cough as softly as possible to avoid waking the sleeping baby next to you. You'll feel a very gently "wet" sensation of contact in your throat. Notice the effect in your diaphragm, just below the apex of your bottom ribs. It may bounce gently with each pulsation in reaction to the momentary interruption of the air flow. This helps to amplify the effect of the glottal stop.
Next, try stringing that series of whispered !ah syllables on a single exhaled breath, so the airflow is only momentarily interrupted by the glottal stops.
Now try it inhaling. The only thing different is the breath direction. All the same machinery is doing all the same things.
Now try it with a harmonica, both inhaling and exhaling.
At first you may hear a series of repeated notes rather than a pulsation. To turn it into pulsation, try relaxing the pulsation in your throat (i.e. glottis). Instead of !ah-!ah-!ah, you're aiming for AhAhAh, with the glottal stop blended into the sound of the sustained note.
What Winslow is describing, to me, is PART of the equation. What he describes is only about airflow, which might result in the sound getting rapidly louder and softer. In engineering terms we say the signal's AMPLITUDE is changing. That is an effect - we all do it - but it is not technically vibrato, it is tremelo. Tremelo is a rapid louder/softer change in amplitude. Vibrato is a change in FREQUENCY - meaning the note has to be bent and unbent slightly. That can be done with the tongue if you tongue-bend, but the effect isn't nearly as satisfying, to me anyway, as if it is done in the throat. Winslow's instructions are indeed part of it - but the key is to understand that what must result is a change in PITCH. So I would add to try this - start with an A harp, 2 hole - one of the easiest notes to bend. Draw per Winslow's instructions but try to just begin to bend the note at the same time. If you do this while you're on the "hairy edge" of a bend, you should be very close to true throat vibrato (if you're not already there.)
I do vibrato with the tongue. I do tremolo with the diaphragm which I can change the rate of. I just found myself doing the diaphragm thing one day so started working on controlling that effect. I have read about throat vibrato here several times. Have no idea what the hell that is?? LOL...BN
Greg ... anyway you could get sound bites of the differences. This is interesting. I had always thought what i was doing was vibrato. Lol. But i dont believe im bending at all. Your right i suppose this is just tremelo. But is that not what we just call vibrato.
Im gonna have to go diggin in youtube world. If ive been missin somethin the whole time .... **smh**
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 7:14 PM
If your diaphragm is pulling the airstream smoothly inward, or pushing it smoothly outward, your glottal stop can do what Winslow is (perfectly) describing.
Ahh.. greg i just watched a few videos on youtube. Finally made it to will wildes vid. He basically explains what you were saying. I get it now. I suppose iam bending slightly. I'm doing exactly what hes doing. Tremelo would be the drastic start stop. Whereas the wavy vibrato is actually slightly bending the note. I was just unaware i was bending i guess.
When i read your post i imagined something more drastic. Im going to attempt to post a sound bite ... and perhaps you can tell me. Maybe im crazy and delusional.... its been known to happen
Edit: Thanks Adam. So im not crazy?
Man i cant believe you got to learn from that guy adam. Hes somethin else. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 7:45 PM
Man he had great tone and licks.His voice is something as well,silky smooth does work for blues.I can imagine him doing a few Sam Cooke songs. I'm going to check out a few more of his tracks on the tube
Last Edited by indigo on Mar 21, 2016 8:10 PM
Here ... this is more a test of the box app and my imbed skills.
But i just recorded this with my phone really quick. I started normal, then varied speed a little bit and volume. The mic didnt pick it up too well. But maybe you can tell me if im actually hitting vibrato or if you would classify this as tremelo.
Think i got it this time. On mobile sites the options are different. Had to goto the BOX desktop site to get the embed option ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 10:02 PM
I happen to disagree with Greg Heumann about terminology re vibrato and tremolo.
The specific query was about "throat" vibrato and I went into detail about that while leaving other aspects alone. Thus I didn't get into how the tongue can be used along with the glottis to vary pitch along with amplitude.
Describing amplitude pulsation as tremolo and separating it from vibrato is a 20th century phenomenon that seems to date from the appearance of tremolo knobs on amplifiers. Historically vibrato has had many definitions, but they all involve one common factor: they all put an undulation in a sustained tone.
The vibrato/tremolo thing is incomplete picture of the ways a harmonica player can make a sustained tone undulate - change slightly in a regular, recurring way.
The harmonica gives you not two, but *three* different ways to make a tone undulate, and different parts of the body will produce them in different combinations. They are:
-- Amplitude (aka volume, aka intensity)
-- Pitch (called throb or even wobble when it's overdone)
The diaphragm will produce only changes in amplitude.
The glottis will produce changes in amplitude, but these can be modified to include variations in pitch by using the tongue in proximity to the soft palate.
The tongue can produce both pitch change and vowel change (oyoyoyoy - Howard Levy sometimes uses this, as did Chris Michalek). This can be an effective method for producing slight pitch vibrato in blow notes that don't ordinarily bend.
The hands can produce changes in both overtone profile and amplitude. Closed hands produce a dark tone, open hands a bright tone, and changing between open and closed will produce vowels. But each note has a hand shape that will also make the note louder. Doug Tate was a master of using his hands to find the sweet spot for every note to make it loud without using a lot a lot of breath. Classical players often use a very subtle hand vibrato by rocking their hands without actually opening them - and yes, they *do* call this vibrato and not tremolo. For instance, here's classical harmonicist artfully blending hand and throat vibrato, in a way that's exactly right for the music he's playing, but about as far as you could get from the throbbing vibrato often cultivated by both opera singers and blues harmonica players.
I did find something interesting in Jakes Vibrato video. He shows a way to rattle/growl. Its pretty cool. At the very least this thread has opened up some new avenues for me to search.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I struggled for years trying to achieve a nice bluesy vibrato. Machine gun, ak ak, all the little tricks always ended up producing a tremolo -- no change in pitch.
Then David Barrett gave me this suggestion. There is definitely a bending component to a good vibrato. David suggested that I try approaching the unbent note slowly and gradually from below. Try to isolate and control the pitch range just below that of the unbent note. Cultivate the ability to only slightly alter the pitch.
You can never achieve a good sounding, deep Kim Wilson type vibrato using only your tongue. That, to me, is a "cheating" vibrato. It just sounds anemic compared to a good, deep throat vibrato. So you need to use a combination of your diaphragm and your glottis. Not quite in synchrony but just out of it with glottis pinching the air flow just before contracting the diaphragm. It's all in learning to manipulate the timing of your glottis and your diaphragm contracting slightly out of phase with each other.
That's different from the way they are usually used. For example, when you yell, your glottis opens as your diaphragm contracts. It's an automatic response learned at the moment the doc slaps the newborn on the rump to jump start his breathing. So it is a little unnatural to manipulate the glottis and diaphragm independently -- on inhale. But it can be learned.
It's like a cough only on inhale. With a cough you close your glottis as you contract your diaphragm, creating a burst of pressurized air. But you only partially close your glottis and do it rhythmically.
Bottom line -- the key to a good bluesy vibrato is learning to manipulate the glottis and diaphragm more independently than you are used to. Like any other harmonica skill, it takes time and practice. But at least with this thread you have some good tips to get you started. the rest is up to you.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Mar 22, 2016 2:36 AM
I want to know more about this. What's the general consensus here. Yall just blew up everything i "Knew" about vibrato and then just left it in pieces.
What's the deal here? I never payed too much attention to vibrato because its one thing I thought I had down pretty well. But if what im doing is half assed in any way, Ide like to know. Lol.
Or even if Im fine, but there is more to be had from vibrato in terms of drastically different sounds and techniques, i would like to know that aswell.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
@killa Vibrato has several parts AM, FM and Speed are three of the main parts that come to mind. Your vibrato doesn't have the FM part yet and developing control over the speed is another exercise all can be developed by certain exercise. They take on different roles in the music and control will help with the expression you want. This tune has nice blues vibrato on the held notes
This is more of a vibrato sound of a cello player.
Welcome to The Box Killa. Good to put up an example. You have quite a strong AM but Diggs is right the FM with pitch variation is not there yet. I'm hopeless explaining these things but there have been some good replies above.
In this sample of mine I'm playing a pretty heavy Throat Vibrato on the 2 draw. I find it easier to do this vibrato with the slight pitch bend. You have to try and bend the draw note ever so slightly (just below the draw note) so you can feel the pull/resistance of a bend and hold this as you continue to inhale and let the glottis do its own thing modulating the note between the pitch bend and the draw note.
About a minute in I am just playing the 1 draw straight without the slight pitch bend and use a diaphragm/throat 'vibrato' like your example. This is the type I use on blow holes and also draw holes above 4 where I can't get the pitch bend to grip as well.
There are many ways to produce vibrato and tremolo, and many ways to use the techniques separately and together. You can even get a type of vibrato with just your lips or by moving the harp in and out of your embouchure.
There is no one "correct" way to get vibrato. It is not a "learn it or you don't pass" situation.
Read the above discussions, search online, try the different ways out, and find the approach(es) that give(s) you the sound(s) you want.
Vibrato is sometimes used too much, not as an effect, but on every note. Vibrato sometimes is over done and can vary in pitch to the extent that it is annoying.
Find what works for you to get the sound you want for your music.
Grey Owl has some of the finest throat vibrato I've heard. When I heard it first (on other samples) I thought it was maybe the Chris Michalek-style mouth/tongue vibrato as it has that lovely singing quality.
This is the vibrato I covet. That opening note, for four bars with deep vibrato in sync with the pulse. That's what I want.
I can do it to some extent, but not for long sustains. His description of the feel is spot on IMO. I like Greg's description of playing on the 'Hairy Edge' of the bend too.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 22, 2016 2:45 PM
No, but seriously. I get it now. Lol. Thanks alot yall.
I really had no idea that was being done. I had never heard anyone speak of putting bending energy into it. Its funny how you can just glaze over things when listening to music. However Im sure this is ALL i will hear for a while now. 8^)
@Diggs Thanks for that explaination. I like the AM FM description. The first video helped, right away i could hear the difference. Thats some sick playin btw. Wow. I gotta get up to philly n see you play sometime.
I guess half of it was just hearing others back up what greg was saying. Not that i thought he was making things up, but i had just never heard it described that way. I really couldn't find much last night digging around either. Video lessons just describe the AM part. I suppose they figure you ll get the rest on your own ? ... idk.
@Owl. Thanks for you explanation also. And for that Killer version of help me.
@MTG this wouldn't make a bad sticky for your list. I'm sure you members who have been here a while have seen this thread pop up more than a few times.
Also @Greg. .... Thanks for bringing this up in the first place.
**Mind Blown** Like that commercial with the purple smoke. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 23, 2016 2:37 AM
To be fair to Winslow, his book has a precise description of the procedure (expanding on what he said here about adding pitch variation). He refers to the 'nggg' spot.
Worth looking at Adam's (free) video on this. He talks about approaching it by doing whatever he could actually do at the time, then developing it.
Also worth listening to Paul Butterfield's Teaching Blues Harmonica Masterclass CD. He has a characteristic more fluttery kind of vibrato.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 23, 2016 2:00 AM
You mention Chris Michalek r.i.p and that is the vibrato I covet, it’s the sweetest one I’ve heard and is the oyoyoyoyoyo type of Jaw vibrato that Winslow mentioned. It seems to work well across the harp both blow and draw and is very controllable in tempo. As well as Howard mentioned above Alex Paclin’s good as well.
It’s not as earthy or bluesy as the throat vibrato though, IMO.
Chris had replaced the throat vibrato he used to use and played the Jaw Mouth/Tongue Vibrato instead but his musical taste had veered away from Blues into jazz and other genres by that stage. For those who don’t know him, he’s worth checking out on YT.
In his own words ‘yes, my style of vibrato works on all notes, blow, draw, bent, OB, OD. The great thing about it is consistency.’
Here is a glimpse of a casual sit-in teaching session where Chris is explaining and demonstrating this vibrato. As in the throat vibrato there is just a hint of a bend in the action.
And Chris sitting in with Jason's 'New Blood' band playing a groove in 2nd position on a C harp. Sounds very 3rd position though.
Another couple of examples of throat vibratos I really like on the higher harps are.
Little Sonny’s ‘The Creeper Returns’
and Dan Kaplan’s ‘Bus Window’ a mixture of Throat and Diaphragm
The terms vibrato and tremolo are sometimes incorrectly used interchangeably, although they are properly defined as separate effects with vibrato defined as a periodic variation in the pitch (frequency) of a musical note, and tremolo as a fast repetition of the same note (usually a semiquaver) in order to produce the audible effect of a longer note, especially on instruments which do not have the ability of producing long sustained notes, such as the guitar. In practice, it is difficult for a singer or musical instrument player to achieve a pure vibrato or tremolo (where only the pitch or only the volume is varied), and variations in both pitch and volume will often be achieved at the same time. Electronic manipulation or generation of signals makes it easier to achieve or demonstrate pure tremolo or vibrato.
copy paste and hit enter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vibrato_and_tremolo_graph.PNG
notice the gaps in the stright line[there not real clear] thats when air is cut off
The Wikipedia entry seems deficient in accounting for variations in intensity of a long note - rather than actually repeating the note.
It reminds me of one of the main difficulties in teaching throat vibrato, and even in teaching beginners to repeat a note at all. They tend to breathe just enough to start the note, and then stop, as if they were hitting a drum. They often have to be coached to sustain the note between repetitions, and, when learning throat vibrato, to massage the airflow instead of stopping it completely. =========== Winslow
Message it is a great description. So it seems, by the wiki description, that the desired effect is actually a mix of both.
So it seems that what im doing is not technically vibrato, but is commonly referred to as vibrato. And what im looking to do now is more like vibrato 2.0 ? Even tho it really doesnt matter what you call it, as long as everyone knows what you mean when you say it.
Ive been trying to get the bend energy in there, but its not that easy. And/or Im just not sure how its going to sound acoustically. Ive been trying with 2 draw on an A harp. Is the "Blue Third" a good comparison of the amount of bending energy that is required to be applied for vibrato 2.0? Basically the same mouth shape and everything? This seems to be how i get closest to the right sound. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Not sure what degree of bend is required. It is basically the same mouth shape. It's not try to shape the bend and let it off in a manufactured way repeated over and over it just kind of happens in the glottis. It's like trying to fake a yawn or doing one for real..its different. Sorry I can't be of much more help. I was lucky I guess in that I didn't learn it like when trying to bend, it just happened.
Just for interest (I don't know if the audacity profile indicates what degree of modulaion there is) but the sound file is me playing a 3 draw vibrato followed by a 3 draw tremelo and then two images showing the wave form of each type.
The vibrato hs a more jagged peak than the tremelo. When I looked at an enlargement on Audacity. the tremelo looked a lot smoother and rounded profile.
I think i got it a bit. I recorded this earlier today while messing around. I wanted to record it right away incase i was unable to find the right throat spot again later. Excuse the backround noise. The vibrato doesnt sound great either, but ive only been at it two days. Lol. I just wanted to see what yall thought. If im on the right track.
My attempt at Vibrato 2.0
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 24, 2016 8:22 PM
Hey Killa, you're on the way! My impression was the first part you were on the edge of getting it (on the 2 draw on a Bb marine band?) the 2nd part on the 4 draw was better and you could hear some vibrato kicking in. The tone of that harp sounded nice.
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Mar 25, 2016 7:23 AM
That sounds like exactly the right thing for 'proto-vibrato'. Now you just need to spend the next 15 years perfecting it :)
In my vibrato journey (near the start too) I've also found the 4D easier to make smooth than the 2D which is inclined to be more stuttery. It's still a good effect though. Little Sonny's The Creeper Returns has a great stuttery vibrato on the 2D.
Grey Owl's traces show that this kind of vibrato is a mixture of AM and FM. I wonder if the Chris Michalek style has less AM and more FM relatively. I can't to do it try.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 25, 2016 7:46 AM
the epiglottis opens on inhaling to let air into the lungs and closes upon swallowing to prevent aspiration into the lungs....Ive actually tried swallowing upon inspiration to try and close the epiglottis off but only end up coughing
Thanks guys. Glad to know i got something going. It's nice getting feedback. Sometimes its hard to hear what your actually doing, because you hear what you want to hear. Or hear what you were TRYING to do.
Owl .. it was a Bb Manji. Hogany Comb. (Love The Hogany.) I was actually in the car at the time so i wasnt really trying to get the best tone. And also wasnt planning on sharing ... lol. But thanks.
Back to my AM FM practice. Vibrato 2.0. 8^)> ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 25, 2016 8:18 AM
About vibrato-- here are two sound files I sent to individuals on harp-l a decade ago. It was my attempt to demonstrate, with my harp, the difference between a volume change and a pitch change, whatever name you give it. Wrong or right, I call volume change "tremolo" and pitch change "vibrato". Both are worth learning. Have a listen:
Unfortunately I can't access either of those files. They are dropbox, but the src attribute is empty? Thanks.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 27, 2016 2:57 AM
Yes. There is Nothing there to listen to. Check your text. I would love to listen to them. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Forgive me, Winslow, I'm going to use the terms because vibrato and tremelo sound different and I don't know what else to call them to describe them more accurately....
I have been able to do glottal/throat TREMELO since I started playing harp. It was a skill I had learned playing oboe. However THAT had nothing to do with bending the note in question, and it took me much more time to learn that on harp. I developed tongue vibrato a while back but throat vibrato came much later and I'm still working on it.
One day I asked Andy Just what I could do better. (I ask players I respect that a lot. ) First he said "aw man you play great - I can't tell you anything" but I don't believe that- I think we ALL can learn from each other and I ain't no Andy Just (nor am I several of my other idols) - so I pushed him - and he finally said "you should learn to develop your throat vibrato". A couple years later and I have it - though I'm only really decent at it on the bottom 3-4 holes of the harp. For me it was eye-opening HUGE improvement in tone - there was something about the process that may also have opened my throat more, I guess - anyway a throat vibrato has a much richer tone than a tongue vibrato - at least - in my mouth it does. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
wolfkristiansen Thank you. That worked (sort of) on a tablet, but not on my PC. These are great examples so I hope you don't mind I've edited the html here...
Pleased to hear it's coming together Killa, it can be tricksy. I think you can get a big tone. I kind of let my stomach push out, it gives a firm base and let my throat relax as much as I can and create a big oral cavity. Here is a quick sample on a Bb Manji on holes 4,3,2&1. My natural resonance works best on holes 2 & 3 with hole 1 not quite so strong and I struggle a bit with hole 4 to initiate that slight bend smoothly. (Christelle has got a very strong vibrato on 4.) I hammered these out aiming at big with no effects, just acoustic.
FWIW
Edit: looks like Wolf's got his 2 samples on Autoplay. Though his code shows autostart = False??
Thanks for that sound clip Owl. Thats gonna really help ALOT. I need to practice it more. It's a tough one. I feel like I can hit the 4 vibrato pretty well and the 2 is "ok". But i have a hard time maintaining it when i try to drop my jaw and relax my throat.
I just wanted to know if someone else could do it.
Actually now that i think about it, I had the same problem learning to bend in the dropped jaw/open throat position. Now it's second nature. So just a matter of practice i guess.
---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!
Wow, this thread is great! I am currently learning vibrato and was able to produce some right off the bat with the advice given in the first few posts. Can't wait to read the rest, you rock! :)
Skullkid this is an old thread from the main forum. Obviously it was very helpful to me. Infact this thread was one of the great "aha" moments in my playing thus far. If it werent for this thread i would still be using tremelo. So i reposted it in the beginner forum for everyone to read.
