johan d
59 posts
Jun 12, 2017
10:26 PM
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I managed it to get 2&4 bends under my belt, but the 3 draw bend(s) are more of a problem. Is it true that more power is needed to get the 3 draw bent?
At first I used too much power on 2 and 4 draw bends as well, but overtime I figured out it was doable without that much extra effort. Different it is with the 3DB. I have the impression I have to close the gap much more than with 2&4DB, and suck more air inwards. Is this your experience too?
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johan d
60 posts
Jun 12, 2017
10:36 PM
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edit: Found a lot of info here.
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/8987845/5489665.htm
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The Iceman
3160 posts
Jun 13, 2017
5:02 AM
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It's not about force. It's about finesse. It's not about sucking more air. It's about inhaling gently. Breathe the harmonica. Don't blow and suck.
It sounds like you've bought into a bad philosophy in order to bend and you may have to undo some bad habits and relearn.
It's also about tongue placement in creating bends.
There's been much discussion about this on other threads, even recent ones, so do a bit of searching on this site and most if not all of your questions will be answered.
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The Iceman
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johan d
64 posts
Aug 04, 2017
1:47 AM
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Well, I did some practicing on those 3 hole bends, I can get all tones out of that 3rd hole, some better than others.
I just wanted to say that the blue 3rd , minor 3rd, is with almost same mouth/lips/tongue position, as the Major 2nd, I have to reshape my tongue a lot more, and it is the most unclear note out of the 4 bends until now. Bending all the way down to minor 2nd is the most easy. Any simular experiences here?
Last Edited by johan d on Aug 04, 2017 1:56 AM
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AppalachiaBlues
37 posts
Aug 04, 2017
2:14 AM
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Iceman is right, it is not about force. It is about finesse.
Reshaping the mouth and finding the right tongue position is important. But also learn to work your throat.
Experimentation and practice is the secret.
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GamblersHand
662 posts
Aug 04, 2017
3:30 AM
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I find it most challenging to release the bends progressively - e.g. go from a full tone bend to a semitone bend. The latter is a common phrase on the 9th/10th bar of a 12-bar blues.
I also find it challenging to nail bends quickly and consistently with G harps or lower. I would not attempt to play a G harp in D minor for example. well not in public at least.
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SuperBee
4868 posts
Aug 04, 2017
6:27 AM
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Maybe a nice low octave 1st position piece would be good to practice, along with some arpeggios in 1st 2nd and 3rd.
Barrett's 'the tub' is 1st position low octave using G harp. Lots of fun to play, only 5 choruses, quite a nice chromatic finale lick.
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Andrew
1604 posts
Aug 04, 2017
6:44 AM
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Appalachia is right - with any wind instrument, oboe, flute, harp, the instrument is the thing you stick in your mouth plus the whole mouth/throat cavity - they work as one - they are not separate.
The reeds send sound forwards into the air and they send sound backwards into your mouth, where the sound gets modified by the shape of your mouth, of your throat, the tongue placement and anything else you've got in there. The sound then comes back out again modified and modifying the sound that originally went forwards (that's the simple explanation - those of you with technical backgrounds, I know there's more to it than that).
((Now let's see if I've got my usual problem with this forum - if I take longer than 30 seconds to type a message, I get a session time-out!))
nope, it was OK that time
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 04, 2017 6:46 AM
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The Iceman
3310 posts
Aug 04, 2017
1:33 PM
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sez Andrew: Appalachia is right - with any wind instrument, oboe, flute, harp, the instrument is the thing you stick in your mouth plus the whole mouth/throat cavity - they work as one - they are not separate.
I disagree strongly. With diatonic harmonica, techniques allow you to create notes not "given" and the notes created can range up to 3 half steps plus. I don't know of any other wind instrument that allows this, nor does any other wind instrument produce sound when you inhale.
Do not consider mouth/throat/tongue as one!
They need to be separated out until you understand how to control them individually - they are not connected directly.
It is purely tongue placement that creates notes not "given". Some have thought that you must use the throat, but most have finally realized that it is actually the tongue extending a bit further down. The only thing one can do with the throat to give deeper resonance is to hold those throat muscles gently open in the "Pre Yawn Attitude". Tongue moves totally independent to this.
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The Iceman
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Mirco
522 posts
Aug 04, 2017
6:01 PM
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What are you doing with your eyebrows? I find that I really have to put a lot of eyebrow into the 3 draw bends.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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STME58
2017 posts
Aug 04, 2017
7:37 PM
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When I first read Andrew's statement, "the instrument ...plus the whole mouth/throat cavity - they work as one - they are not separate." I thought theat seemed right. I was suprised to see Iceman disagree, though I have noticed that the effect on the harmonica is much stronger than with other instuments. On reflecting on the comments here I think "work as one" is not the right term, but perhap interact would be better. On some instruments this interaction is stronger. I notice I can shape the tone on a trumpet much more than I can on a trombone, I have read that conical instruments (sax) , are more effected by vocal tract than cylindrical ones (clarinet).
Some interesting research on this topic is being done at the University of New South Wales.
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 04, 2017 7:40 PM
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Andrew
1607 posts
Aug 05, 2017
2:08 AM
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Yeah, but the trombone is to music as the steam-roller is to patisserie.
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Andrew.
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SuperBee
4871 posts
Aug 05, 2017
4:22 AM
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I think the iceman took a different meaning from the statement than Andrew intended. Iceman objects to the idea of throat, tongue, oral cavity being thought of as 'one', but looks to me that Andrew is saying harp and flesh are one as in they are both involved in the sound. Nothing objectionable there to my mind.
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MindTheGap
2308 posts
Aug 05, 2017
7:14 AM
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Here we go again. I like Iceman's view of separating out the physical bits from a teaching point of view. But any attempts to take it further and say you know that these are separate in physics terms (this bit does this, this bit does that) and that's just a load of words.
Andrew's description is fine - the sound gets thrown around and modified by your bits.
If it continues I'll have to point people at that dreadful, dreadful thread where it was discussed last. And no one wants that.
That said, there was a nice BBC documentary on sound just recently. One section was an MRI scan of a famous opera singer doing her thing. If you want to have your personal of view challenged of 'what the tongue does and what shape it is when you speak and sing', I'd recommend a watch.
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1847
4364 posts
Aug 05, 2017
7:27 AM
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3575367/What-opera-tunity-Video-reveals-happens-head-throat-singer-performs-Wagner.html
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1847
4365 posts
Aug 05, 2017
8:00 AM
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testing 123 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3575367/What-opera-tunity-Video-reveals-happens-head-throat-singer-performs-Wagner.html
MRI
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Last Edited by 1847 on Aug 05, 2017 8:37 AM
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Tommy the Hat
686 posts
Aug 05, 2017
8:15 AM
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These arguments or differing opinions/understandings are not unusual. They happen in the vocal community also and modern pedagogy doesn't help matters. There are many debates over the best way to create certain sounds, what's causing these sounds, how to manipulate these sounds, and on and on. The tongue position or shape, lifting of the soft palate, redirecting sound or air, shaping sounds, modifying vowels, embouchure, smiling, not smiling, singing from the eyes (Yes, thats real) and the list goes on.
As for the documentary MindTheGap mentions I may have seen that at some point; but either way I'm sure I know what it's about. There are other like it that I am familiar with.
The point is that separating the bits and pieces, strengthening and honing them is great, I agree. However at some point these things should be coordinated enough to work together as well as separately or jumbled in any fashion. Like using your fingers separately to coordinate them, then the rest of the hand etc until you can use everything from fingers to shoulder any way you choose. Ok...poor analogy...but I tried!
We all approach things a little differently. Whatever works for you.
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Tommy
My YouTube vocal covers
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Facebook
Last Edited by Tommy the Hat on Aug 05, 2017 8:17 AM
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Andrew
1608 posts
Aug 05, 2017
8:16 AM
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Perhaps it's most instructive to think of the jawharp.
But if you've done this topic to death, I won't continue.
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Andrew.
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STME58
2018 posts
Aug 05, 2017
6:18 PM
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Andrew, I sense you are disparaging my first instrument. I respond with this quote from Mark Twain, " If it please your neighbor to break the sacred calm of night with the snorting of an unholy trombone, it is your duty to put up with his wretched music and your privilege to pity him for the unhappy instinct that moves him to delight in such discordant sounds." :-)
Beware, there are a few other trombonists lurking on this site.
When I had to empty my pockets for a security check at the emergency room today, the security guard noticed my harps and informed me that he also played harmonica, and trombone!
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Andrew
1609 posts
Aug 06, 2017
2:13 AM
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Technically, the trombone was my first instrument, if you discount the school xylophone. I had a friend who lived 4 doors down who was in the Salvation Army silver band and he gave me a lesson. Then when I went to secondary school only a few months later, they asked if anyone had any musical experience, no matter how small, and like a fool I said I had had one trombone lesson. I was immediately sent red-faced to the music rooms for my second. I never had another! I was sent thence, depending on the vacancies in the school orchestra, to the French horn, then to the bassoon, then to the oboe, with which I stuck for 8 years. So I know something about embouchure (and James Galway in his autobiography confirms exactly the same things as I learnt). When someone tells me I'm wrong, I laugh and say no more about it.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 06, 2017 5:58 AM
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The Iceman
3311 posts
Aug 06, 2017
6:49 AM
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" So I know something about embouchure (and James Galway in his autobiography confirms exactly the same things as I learnt). When someone tells me I'm wrong, I laugh and say no more about it."
My takeaway from Andrew's comment is that he knows a lot about the embouchure used when playing trombone, French Horn, bassoon and oboe.
I've seen no one tell him he's wrong about these instruments. However, I did hear that folk who play the oboe/bassoon suffer brain damage from the tight pressure required from the mouth, lips and breath on those thin double reeds....
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The Iceman
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Honkin On Bobo
1458 posts
Aug 06, 2017
8:26 AM
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Then again, it's been widely reported that there is a high correlation between having perfect pitch and people with sensory and developmental disabilities.....
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Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Aug 06, 2017 8:28 AM
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groyster1
2991 posts
Aug 06, 2017
8:49 AM
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via korg tuner I had the most difficulty with whole step 3 draw bend....did well with step and half bend and decent with half step,which is blue 3rd
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Andrew
1611 posts
Aug 06, 2017
9:54 AM
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The iceman's "takeaway from Andrew's comment is that he knows a lot about the embouchure used when playing trombone, French Horn, bassoon and oboe."
No, that was just some waffle to show that a musical journey can be tortuous. I know nothing of French horn - I had to share it with another boy. I think my parents complained to the school and so I stopped.
Bassoon is a double reed, so it's pretty much like oboe.
The brain damage has only become more obvious now that tuberculosis has been eliminated - that used to be the main result of oboe playing.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 06, 2017 9:54 AM
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STME58
2019 posts
Aug 06, 2017
10:43 AM
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I remember my high school band director, whose main instrument was euphonium, going down a list of instrument specific insults, low brass are terrible kissers, trumpets are arrogant, and double reed players are just a bit off mentally. I had always thought he was just basing it on stereotypes, and was being a bit insensitive to the fact that our double reed players were a bit socially different.
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MindTheGap
2309 posts
Aug 06, 2017
10:57 AM
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The trombone is much cooler than the oboe isn't it - or have I got that wrong?
I'd heard somewhere about the double-reed-brain thing, so this thread prompted me to have a read. There's talk of the pressure causing problems with eyes. And anxiety and stress about the double-reed itself.
TB?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Aug 06, 2017 10:59 AM
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Andrew
1612 posts
Aug 06, 2017
11:22 AM
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No, the eye problems are from masturbation.
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Andrew.
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STME58
2020 posts
Aug 06, 2017
12:23 PM
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Stressing over reeds seems to be a common thing. The whole thing is very complex and we may never understand it. My son plays bassoon and he is learning to make his own reeds. In doing some research we came across the idea that the best reeds are harvested near midnight on a full moon. The plants that reeds are made from, arundo donax, grows as weeds in our area, but like grapes for wine, you would not want to use just and old reed plant, but ones carefully cultivated in specific climates. I don't know if special incantations are required when harvesting reeds :-).
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The Iceman
3312 posts
Aug 06, 2017
3:57 PM
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I agree with Andrew - "No, the eye problems are from masturbation."
My mom would say - no masturbating. You will go blind.
So I told her I would just masturbate until I needed glasses. (I wear glasses now, btw)
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The Iceman
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Andrew
1613 posts
Aug 06, 2017
4:00 PM
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The oboe indeed used to be known as the "TB stick" long ago.
I don't know you well enough, STME, to know how serious you are about anything.
If you buy reeds, they are about £20 each and they can only last a week or less, so if you are impecunious, they will cause worry. I recommend making your own. But playing the instrument and making the reeds can become a full-time job.
Buy the cane precut and gouged - it isn't worth the cost and hassle of buying a gouger and keeping the blade sharp.
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Andrew.
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STME58
2021 posts
Aug 06, 2017
9:49 PM
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My son also buys the precut and gouged cane, for the reasons you listed. He told me the first reeds he made were better than the worst store bought but not as good as the best. I was serious about what I found about the reeds. I suspect that havesting at night on a full moon has a reason other than voodoo, but its fun to leave that part off. I now know what arundo donax looks like and I see it in creek and river beds all over, though I dont expect the qualtiy of this wild growing cane is up to the standards of the reed blanks my son buys from Crook and Staple.
On your other topic of blindness, I hear it is a potential adverse effect for Viagra. Do you think this is just a coincedence.
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Tuckster
1644 posts
Aug 07, 2017
9:34 AM
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Since we are off topic: I last saw Dr. John maybe 2 years ago and he had a trombone player with him. Not only was she a great trombone player,she was also the music director on stage. She played one tune with a wah wah pedal.
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Andrew
1614 posts
Aug 07, 2017
9:42 AM
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My favourite trombone playing is from the Dirty Dozen Brass Band.
Captain Beefheart had trombone on a couple of his late albums. I was never very keen on his use of it. But that was because I didn't stop listening to Troutmask until only 15 years ago.
Apart from that, I can't think of anywhere I've heard it. Not with any pleasure, anyway.
I think the key is in the slide - it needs to be used with subtlety if you are going to slur notes.
Back on topic, I was going to say, 3-draw, with me it varies from harp to harp - depends how they are gapped. I tend to have fewer difficulties with the full tone bend than with the semitone bend or the less-than-semitone blue 3rd bend.
This may be because I have a strong diaphragm vibrato and the fulltonebend is easier for me to hammer hard in the middle of the range, whereas the semitone and quarter tone are more sensitive.
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Andrew.
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Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 07, 2017 9:49 AM
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STME58
2022 posts
Aug 07, 2017
7:26 PM
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Trombone wah wah pedals are highly specialized and look something like this  I keep one in my mute bag.
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 07, 2017 7:28 PM
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