nacoran
9919 posts
Jul 27, 2018
1:42 AM
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Has anyone out there ever made reed plates? Cutting, stamping, or pouring... I ask because I've got two conflicting answers, both from people I respect, one who says it's out of reach of anyone who isn't doing huge contracts with manufacturers and another who does fine metal work who's looked at them and thinks he can do them much cheaper.
What sorts of tolerances are needed. If you are setting up for a special tuning, assuming you are planning on using someone else's reeds, what size slot is ideal for what notes for what brands.
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Nate
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Todd Parrott
1456 posts
Jul 27, 2018
9:59 PM
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I'm pretty sure they are machinable. Chris Reynolds once machined actual reeds while we were on the phone, and they worked and played fine. He is an incredible machinist. As for tolerances and reed slot sizes, I'm not qualified to answer that. Of course, Harrison Harmonicas machined them too.
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nacoran
9921 posts
Jul 28, 2018
4:34 PM
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Thanks Todd. Yeah, I've had one other person chime in that reed plates shouldn't be a bridge too far. Running into a situation where the other option is chopping up old reedplates.
Edit- Does anyone have the reed slot measurements for pitches and an idea of what the tolerances are? I can take apart a couple harps and figure out the measurements for each slot, I guess, but how tight are the tolerances? How many reed lengths do the big guys have, that is, are all their C4 slots the same from harp to harp
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Jul 28, 2018 6:58 PM
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WinslowYerxa
1595 posts
Jul 29, 2018
2:39 PM
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Tom Halchak has been making reedplate thickness doublers, which of course have reed slots cut into them. The big challenge I imagine is making square corners in the slot. That is usually done with stamping dies, as a rotating machining bit can't make square corners. There's wire and water jet cutting, though.
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nacoran
9925 posts
Jul 29, 2018
4:52 PM
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I have a friend who is a jeweler. I was asking him about cutting pieces of reed plates to splice together to get the note range I needed, but he said it would be easier to laser cut the plates from scratch, which would actually make the rest of the project much easier since it would mean being able to use the 'right' reed in each slot and not having to do as much radical retuning.
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Nate
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florida-trader
1329 posts
Jul 30, 2018
7:48 AM
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The basic “problem” with all the technologies that can be used to cut sheet metal – other than stamping - is that it is impossible to cut a square inside right angle. As Winslow has pointed out, CNC End Mills have a radius, consequently the inside corner is also radiused. Smaller End Mills means smaller radiuses, but they are still radiused. What most people don’t realize, but it will make sense the moment you read this, is that laser beams and water jets are also round and therefore have the same limitations that CNC Milling does. What this means is that when you install a reed with a perfectly square tip into a slot with radiused corners, the corners of the reeds will snag on the reed slot, if you try to get tight tolerances at the tip of the reed.
Harrison Harmonicas do not have laser cut reed plates. His reed plates were cut using Wire EDM. The wire used for Wire EDM also has a radius, consequently, reed slots cut with Wire EDM also have radiused corners. Not to disparage Harrison Harmonicas, but in my opinion, one of the fatal flaws of that enterprise was that Brad set out to make “Out of the Box harmonicas that are as good as Custom Harmonicas”. To me, that implies that you are able to engineer closer tolerances into the stock harp. A big part of building custom harps involves embossing the reed slots in order to tighten the tolerances of stock harps. To be sure, there are other steps involved, but tightening the tolerances is a huge component of the process. Harrison reed plates had no better tolerances that Hohner plates – in fact, in my opinion, they are worse – because they used Wire EDM to cut the slots. Harrison did have a unique method of milling their reeds along the long axis instead of across the width. In theory, this strengthened the reed by eliminating potential fracture lines. I think this is a great concept, but that’s not really the discussion here. In spite of this supposed improvement, Harrison had to “Dog Ear” the reeds to make them fit into the radiused corners of the slots. In addition, Brad hired some of the finest customizers in America to build the reed plates. The B-Radical is a tremendous innovation and are very well-made harps, but they were hardly “Out of the Box harmonicas that are as good as Custom Harmonicas”. They are, in fact, custom harmonicas, built by some of the best harp techs in the world. The comb and covers were most definitely innovations that were engineered into the design and whatever improvement they made to the diatonic harmonica, they were part of the “Stock” design. The bottom line though is that amount of time and labor required by highly skilled workers was a contributing factor in their demise. I will add that this is conjecture on my part. I realize that some of you who read this might have actually been there and might disagree and/or be in a position to dispute my statements. I have no problem with that. I could be wrong.
And so, we come full circle. If CNC Milling, Laser, Water Jet or Wire EDM were practical technologies for making reed plates, lots of people would already be doing it and this conversation would be completely unnecessary. The fact is that metal stamping – and more precisely – Fine Metal Blanking – is the best way to cut reed plates. Fine Metal Blanking involves cutting the sheet metal from both sides simultaneously. When you drill, stamp, mill or otherwise cut metal, the metal is partially cut and partially pushed aside meaning the finished product has sharp edges, burrs and chads which require additional steps to clean up and remove. A “part” that is cut using Fine Metal Blanking is a finished product when it comes off the cutting table.
As one who has dabbled in making harmonica parts for the past 8 years, I have done my homework. I would love to find a way to cost-effectively manufacture reed plates – independent of the major manufacturers. I recently read a post on Facebook about someone in Europe using a laser with a 0.003” diameter beam. That would be about as good as it gets for cutting the inside corners of the slots. I am sure such a machine is both expensive to own and operate so, how much would each plate cost? I dunno. If you want to make a few plates for yourself to experiment with, that’s one thing. Maybe you won’t mind spending $50 on a plate if you are making 3 or 4 sets. But ultimately, if you are going to bring a product to market, you have to get this stuff done for pennies and the only way to do that is to make thousands of them at a time. The one guy who is innovating more than anyone in the world is Brendan Power. Where does he get his reed plates made? China. Fine Metal Blanking.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jul 30, 2018 7:53 AM
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Rontana
486 posts
Jul 30, 2018
8:48 AM
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At the risk of displaying my ignorance . . .
Why aren't reeds made with the same radiused corners as the slots?
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florida-trader
1331 posts
Jul 30, 2018
10:45 AM
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Rotana - this is a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or, in this case, the reed slot or the reed? The major manufacturers all used Fine Metal Blanking to cut reed plates and using that methaod you can make square corners in the reed slots. Consequently, the reeds are made to fit the slots.
In the after-market world, making reed plates is ony half the equation. Even if you figure out how to make reed plates, you need reeds to install on those plates. Are you going to make those too? Perhaps. It adds another layer of expense. When you can buy reeds from Hohner or Seydel very inexpensively, it begs the question - which is more cost-effective, making them or buying them? Most of the guys I have had conversations with about making reed plates plan to use Hohner or Seydel reeds.
On the other hand, if you are going to make both the reed plates AND reeds to fit in those plates, assuming you use something other than Fine Metal Blanking, it would make sense to radius the tips of the reeds to match the shape of the slots.
Then, of course, there would be a debate over which sounds better - radius tipped reeds or square tipped reeds.
It will never end.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jul 30, 2018 10:46 AM
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WinslowYerxa
1597 posts
Jul 30, 2018
11:13 AM
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Thanks, Tom, very enlightening!
Tom will be a guest lecturer at the upcoming
Harmonica Collective in New Orleans, November 1-3
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Winslow
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
SPAH 2018 - August 14-18 in St. Louis
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nacoran
9927 posts
Jul 30, 2018
2:50 PM
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Very enlightening!
I suspected there were problems with the laser cutting for mass production, but I suspected they were more cost issues where each copy cost more. I think my friend may have been expecting to go to stamping at some point. He was talking about wax molds. I'd be really happy with a $50 reed plate that was 'good enough' at the prototype stage. Hohner was nice enough, based on the loose description of what I'm looking to do to recommend a Hohner 263 reed plate. At $500+ per harp they wouldn't make great price conscious choices! (Anyone have pictures of the insides of one? I wonder how many of the pieces I need I could get from one of them...)
It's a weird experience for me trying to be tight lipped about what I'm up to! This is the first time I've decided to sink more than throw away money into something. (I think my magnetically attached covers were about $20 of magnets and a spare comb). At that price range I could afford to be in it purely to have fun. Interestingly, Brendan's slip slider was the next logical step from my failed magnet covers... the problem with my covers is they moved too much. I don't know if Brendan saw my video or not. He turned the loose fit into a feature. That's actually the sort of back and forth I like.
I just don't have the budget that he has to go to China and get plates stamped, although maybe if I get the prototype set and working if it looks promising I could see about kickstartering or selling the project, or just using cut up reed plates. I remember looking at pictures of some of Brendan's early frankenharps with spliced reed plates, which might be another option.
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Nate
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florida-trader
1332 posts
Jul 30, 2018
7:39 PM
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Nate - I think your best bet to make a few Frankenstein harps is to cut up some reed plates and combine them a la Brendan's creations. The good news is that you can probably get a custom comb made to accommodate the marriage of separate reed plates. That will be a lot easier and less expensive than making the reed plates from scratch.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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nacoran
9928 posts
Jul 30, 2018
8:21 PM
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Tom, that's actually what I was talking to my friend the jeweler about in the first place- cutting down some reed plates. He seemed to think doing them from scratch would be easier. It would certainly require a lot less severe retuning if each slot were cut for the correct reed though!
Edit- Has anyone ever done 3d metal printing for plates? I've watched a lot of videos on plastic 3d printing. Would that have the same problems as laser cutting?
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Jul 30, 2018 8:24 PM
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nacoran
9929 posts
Jul 30, 2018
9:15 PM
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So, did anyone win the powerball? That would make life easier!
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Nate
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Thievin' Heathen
1036 posts
Aug 04, 2018
12:39 PM
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I don't know where you are going with your project, but there is a lot of reed plate to play with in a 265.
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nacoran
9930 posts
Aug 05, 2018
3:12 PM
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Yeah, the 265 is very expensive though. The project was originally looking to use 365 reeds and may still try to adapt them.
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Nate
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nacoran
9935 posts
Aug 09, 2018
5:11 AM
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Okay, a few more questions... one for Tom. Plate doubling gaskets were mentioned... if the reed plate was laser cut and given just enough extra on the tip to give full clearance would a gasket work to tighten things back up?
And then a general one... how many reed plates are there for the Special 20 (or any other Hohner harp). Is there a G plate, an Ab plate, a A plate etc., or are there just two plates (the second starting at D, when they go to short slot). In other words, is a C4 reed slot always the same size on each model or are they re-tuning it depending on which harp it is on?
I've got such a hodge podge collection of harps it's kind of hard to find a pair with the right reeds to measure.
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Nate
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florida-trader
1335 posts
Aug 09, 2018
6:45 AM
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Nate - If all you are cutting via laser is gaskets then it would work. However, just as a point of interest, if you are cutting sheet metal or anything else thicker than a gasket, laser cutting is less than ideal. Aside from the above mentioned radiused inside corners, the other issue is the fact that as the laser cuts through whatever material you are cutting, the beam loses power. Imagine cutting a hole that starts out the diameter of a basketball and when it exits the hole it is the size of a baseball. Obviously not that dramatic, but the hole would be a truncated cone. Cutting with a laser, whatever the dimensions are on the top of the surface, the dimensions will be somewhat less on the bottom when the laser exits the material. How much less depends upon the material being cut and the power of the laser.
Regarding your second question - Hohner only makes two reed plates - "Long Slot" and "Short Slot". The Short Slot plates begin at Db.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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hot4blues
112 posts
Aug 09, 2018
10:42 AM
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Even though it's not too difficult to make reed plates, having the right tools in a machine shop, the person making them should either have perfect pitch, or a machine that can know what each reed should sound like. As for me, I'd be better rebuilding a transmission than taking on that task.
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hot4blues
113 posts
Aug 09, 2018
10:47 AM
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Even though it's not too difficult to make reed plates, having the right tools in a machine shop, the person making them should either have perfect pitch, or a machine that can know what each reed should sound like. As for me, I'd be better rebuilding a transmission than taking on that task.
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florida-trader
1336 posts
Aug 09, 2018
11:12 AM
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hot4blues - I think you have missed the entire point of this conversation. It is VERY difficult to make reed plates, especially in a machine shop. Unlike making after-market combs or even covers, reed plates require a level of precision unavailable to anyone who is not willing to invest a ton of money to have stamps made with which to cut sheet metal.
Transmissions, Brain Surgury, Tax Returns - all simpler than manufactuing a reed plate.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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nacoran
9936 posts
Aug 09, 2018
3:35 PM
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Thanks again for the info Tom. I'm learning more and more of the particulars. I've been reeding (pun) up on fine metal blanking. There seem to be progressive and short run varieties. One has a price tag that makes me cringe and the other has a price tag that makes me go... well, if I saved up, and I thought the product would sell, and I sold a kidney... (actually the short run variety is pricey, but not mortgage the house expensive...) I've got to read up more on it. For a prototype I wonder if it would be practical to get one laser cut and do some really fine file work on it. Obviously that would be cost prohibitive on a production model.
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Nate
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florida-trader
1337 posts
Aug 09, 2018
7:16 PM
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That's what prototyping is all about Nate. Take a look at some of the Frankenstein harps that Brendan Power, Richard Sleigh or Will Scarlett built. And I am sure there are many more. You have to test your concept and if it works and you think it will sell, start figuring out a way to mass produce them.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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Sundancer
240 posts
Aug 09, 2018
9:43 PM
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Sorry, but to me this thread seems to be an equivalent to “have you ever built a bicycle frame?” Of course you haven’t. The skill, tooling & cost involved for a one-off are insanely prohibitive. A very odd conversation.
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Gnarly
2534 posts
Aug 09, 2018
10:34 PM
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I have done some work on Psardo harmonicas, they have individual reed plates for each hole--two reeds each, they make chromatics--and they have Seydel make the reed plates.
The idea is to be able to replace a reed pair instead of the entire reed plate.
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nacoran
9938 posts
Aug 10, 2018
6:11 PM
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Sundancer, there is a world class bicycle maker in my area!
But you are missing the point. I'm not looking at it as a one off. I will, unless I can combine something my jeweler friend can do with some hand tooling to get what I need at a reasonable price, go with cutting down some reed plates for the prototype. But this isn't just a tuning thing. This is a project that is already involving me spending some money. Before I sell a kidney I want to get an idea of what getting to (semi) mass production would be. That's what I'm asking about. (I'm also looking for off the shelf parts that would make producing it easier).
Gnarly, that's cool! It wouldn't quite work for what I'm thinking of though. I find myself in a tough situation. When I have a crazy idea I normally just blurt it out but since I'm working on it with at least the outside idea of going to market with it I have to be more closed lips about it. :) (I just missed with my magnet harmonica covers... what I had would have been brilliant if had applied it to the reed plate. I saw the problems I was having with sliding as a problem, not a feature. I could have beat Brendan to the slip-slide!
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Nate
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J.A.Harmonicas
49 posts
Aug 11, 2018
1:49 PM
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I'm working with accordions as well as harmonicas and there is a company in the Czech Republic called "Harmonikas". They make some of the best accordion reeds available, and they partly use wire EDM technology.
Check out these accordion reeds, they have an arc in the reed frame, and the reed also has an arc in the corners: https://www.harmonikas.cz/en/a-mano-i-class-professional#obsah
And these DIX reeds are the best ones that they offer, and they are very interesting!: https://www.harmonikas.cz/en/dix-1#obsah
They also produce reed plates for harmonicas, and if I'm not mistaken it looks like Seydel?: https://www.harmonikas.cz/en/other-production/job-order-pressing#obsah
Also check out their very cool video: https://www.harmonikas.cz/cz/video#obsah
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Joel Andersson
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nacoran
9939 posts
Aug 12, 2018
4:43 PM
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Very cool site Joel! I loved the video. I wish google translate worked a bit better. You're right. Those harmonica plates do look a lot like Seydel plates.
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Nate
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J.A.Harmonicas
50 posts
Aug 13, 2018
2:10 PM
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nacoran it is very cool! And it also shows that it is possible to make high end accordion reeds with the EDM technology, so in theory it should work for harmonicas as well.
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Joel Andersson
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